High BC Varmint bullets - needed

[B23]

I had a 22-243imp built not to long ago. I've only shot the 80gr ELD-M but it's a laser beam with those things.

Krieger 8tw Sendero contour finished at 28in. using RL26 launches those 80's at 3650.

 

[itchyTF]

Sierra announced a 6.5 mm 105gr BlitzKing with a BC of .425. Been looking for months and haven’t seen any anywhere.

 

[B23]

RAG, since you might decide to do a 22-243 Imp, be aware there's about forty different versions of this wildcat.

Fixed it for you.

You're right though, there's a ton of different versions of the 22-243 "improved". Mine is my gunsmiths version of a 22-243 Imp and it has a 35° shoulder. He calls it Defensive Edge Rifles 224 Terminator. I like his version because he has the dies and formed Lapua brass available to purchase at his shop so it's pretty much one stop shopping having him build it.

There's really not a whole lot gained with regard to case capacity when improving the 243 case so if I couldn't get the dies and already fireformed brass from my smith I'd save the extra expense and work of fireforming and build a 22 Creedmoor or straight 22-243 instead. The 22 Creedmoor and 22-243 have nearly the same case capacity but the Creedmoor already has a 30° degree shoulder. There's even factory ammo available for the 22CM.

 

[RAG]

Sierra announced a 6.5 mm 105gr BlitzKing with a BC of .425. Been looking for months and haven’t seen any anywhere.

Well, that's certainly a step in the right direction for a tru varmint bullet, if/when they actually produce it. Still...would like to see a varmint offering with G1 closer to .5, which wouldn't be too hard to do in 6.5mmm. Thx!

 

[RAG]

I had a 22-243imp built not to long ago. I've only shot the 80gr ELD-M but it's a laser beam with those things.

Krieger 8tw Sendero contour finished at 28in. using RL26 launches those 80's at 3650.

I like the path you took, or your smith took, with the dies matched to reamer/chamber...that's the only way I'll do it (typically I get/buy the die first, and then have reamer made to proper fit/dimensions...plus no-turn tight neck). 35 deg shoulder seems perfect to me, btw.

I had keyed in on the 75 ELD-M cause Hornady only shows a .02 G1 improvement by going up to 80 ELD-M. But Applied Ballistics, via my trusted Kestrel, says the G1s are .464 and .505 respectively...a substantial gain.

 

[David Milisock]

I realize I'm kidding myself, hoping for any new products when manufactures can't even fill current order these days...

BUT, I sure wish somebody would come out with high BC, plastic tipped, varmint bullets. Seems Hornady could do that quite easily, and seems they had that with the old A-Max...only apparent deficit with those was bullet profile/ogive had low BC relative to weight class. Gosh...throw a thinner jacket the ELD lineup, and some of that old-school plastic that softened in route to target, and we'd have Vmax-ELD! Maybe little bigger meplat/plastic tip too by way of slightly shorter jacket.

Wishful thinking I suppose...

Why?

 

[RAG]

There's really not a whole lot gained with regard to case capacity when improving the 243 case so if I couldn't get the dies and already fireformed brass from my smith I'd save the extra expense and work of fireforming and build a 22 Creedmoor or straight 22-243 instead. The 22 Creedmoor and 22-243 have nearly the same case capacity but the Creedmoor already has a 30° degree shoulder. There's even factory ammo available for the 22CM.

Ironically I had already arrived at this same dilemma before reading this. Maybe just due plain 'ol 22-243, for simplicity and a slight velocity compromise in trade for a tad more barrel life...but if one does that, then the 22 Creedmoor is the clear choice! Great brass options too!

As for assumptions...pushed equally hard, can we surmise the velocity difference between these two might be 100 fps pushing an 75 gn pill and maybe 150fps with 80gn pill? With maybe an extra 300 rounds barrel life?
(Cause the extra barrel life, less expensive FL bushing dies, and not having to fireform might be a worth giving up 100-150fps)

 

[RAG]

Why? Why do I want high BC varmint bullets? Cause I don't like crawl-offs...in fact I rather prefer the grenade effect, and I'm trying to better fill a void in my varmint gun arsenal...greater effectiveness at long range and/or in high winds.

 

[RAG]

I had a 22-243imp built not to long ago. I've only shot the 80gr ELD-M but it's a laser beam with those things.

Krieger 8tw Sendero contour finished at 28in. using RL26 launches those 80's at 3650.

Ran the ballistics on this. Laser beam for sure! I personally am looking for hits at medium range, on those windy days, more so that playing at 1,000yds...and this setup would fit that bill perfectly.

Somebody else mentioned a lot of first shot hits at range with this setup. I can only imagine! Going off topic slightly, this last season I got the ultimate combo of Leica Geovid 3200.com paired with Kestrel 5700 (on rotating vane/tripod), with heads-up-display, and it was a total game changer. I was using low BC varmint bullets and getting amazing results in high winds...either hitting on first shot or only missing by a couple inches due to wind changes...those "almost hits" would be hits with this setup.

 

[357Mag]

Why? Why do I want high BC varmint bullets? Cause I don't like crawl-offs...in fact I rather prefer the grenade effect, and I'm trying to better fill a void in my varmint gun arsenal...greater effectiveness at long range and/or in high winds.

Rag -

Howdy, again !

Reviewed your post, and did not read any details on the rifle you would use the chosen chambering with ? Am wondering whether you would go w/ a single shot action, and how long a barrel you might be considering ?

The latter is of some interest, as use of long-er barrel lengths is a proven method for increasing a rifle's " expansion ratio "; for a given chambering & calibre.

The extra barrel length can be used to shift potential powder selections into a slower " burn rate range "; which is likely to result in an increase in load density; too. There are a goodly number of " temperature insensitive " powders to be found dispersed amongst those w/ burn rates slower than H4350. Therefore, going w/ a " slower burn rate " powder than H4350 shouldn't hurt anything, when sufficient barrel length is provided; and an informed powder choice is made.

I mention the above, as a possible route' to take towards achieving useful velocity, safe pressures; and very likely increased barrel life ( IMHO ).


WIth regards,
357Mag

 

[Tommie]

Why?

Ever shot prairie dogs?

 

[357Mag]

Why? Why do I want high BC varmint bullets? Cause I don't like crawl-offs...in fact I rather prefer the grenade effect, and I'm trying to better fill a void in my varmint gun arsenal...greater effectiveness at long range and/or in high winds.

RAG -

Howdy once again !

As regards shoulder angle of the case:

Let's compare various iterations of a ( wildcat ) cartridge.
Make the only variables the shoulder angle and neck length of each different version.
When the same bullet is seated to the same location in the neck, space for the powder charge will decrease.... as sharper and sharper shoulder angles are chosen ( 30, 35, 40* etc al ) .

When Ackley went w/ " blown out " shoulders on his designs, one of the reasons he did so was to offset case capacity loss that increased as sharper and sharper shoulder angle are chosen. In a letter to me, Ackley mentioned that he had once wildcated .35 Remington down to 6mm; and tried it in a Remington Model 8 auto-loader. He stated that is performed well, but he had encountered serious feeding problems. Ackley did not specify the shoulder angle chosen for his " 6 - .35 Remington " wildcat ( which is not mentioned in his 2 Vol Handbook for Reloaders ). Yet, feeding problems in a rifle originally set-up for
.35 Rem makes me wonder whether there wasn't a sharper shoulder angle involved w/ that wildcat ? I mention this because....

I myself wildcatted .35 Remington down to .224" calibre. I did not encounter any feeding problems, nor extraction problems ( whether loaded cartridge or fired cases ) in my rifle; using a Wichita WBR1375 single shot action and M-16 style extractor.
My " .22-35 Remington " wildcat features a 26* shoulder angle. I shot it from 2 different barrels. The first, a 24" SS Hart 1-14 5-groove; for shooting Hornady 55SX.
The second barrel was a 28" SS K & P 1-8 5-groove, for shooting Hornady .224" cal 75gr "A"-Max.


With regards,
357Mag

With regards,
357Mag

 

[David Milisock]

Ever shot prairie dogs?

Twice.

 

[David Milisock]

Why? Why do I want high BC varmint bullets? Cause I don't like crawl-offs...in fact I rather prefer the grenade effect, and I'm trying to better fill a void in my varmint gun arsenal...greater effectiveness at long range and/or in high winds.

I understand the computer ballistics, I guess you're figuring this would increase your hit/clean kill ratio.

As I said I shot dogs twice, lots of shooting and hitting but not my cup of tea, very little hunting.

In your opinion at what range does your one shot clean kill drop off?

I shoot groundhogs and crows across terraced farm fields. Chucks get head shot out to 350 with my 223 out to 450 with my 6MM Remington. The 223 does not get used out past 400 but the 6MM has done good work at 600. Crows become sporty out past 400 with the 6MM but the 233 loses that game at 250 in the wind.

The 223 uses 40 grain VMAX, the 6MM 75 grain VMAX. I practice at the longer ranges regularly

 

[searcher]

Yet we see 70++ grain bullets for .224, why not just shoot a 6mm then?

Not disagreeing with your comment, as I have heard the same.

For all practical purposes - one can get the best balance of velocity, recoil and low barrel heat with the .22's.

 

[JSH]

For all practical purposes - one can get the best balance of velocity, recoil and low barrel heat with the .22's.

Hmmm I will have to chew on that a while.
“Practical” you do realize where your at here, lol.
I was inclined to go along with your idea on the 22 vs 20 a short few years ago.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
I then got educated one week on the plains, in the wind and mirage. I don’t ever see me not owning a 17 or 20 something. I am like others and would like to see available 55 and a bit heavier 20’s.

One comment I saw said mentioned going to a .22 if you want a 55. Well with that type thinking, if you want over a 55, go to a 6mm in 55-58……..etc……..would have been a shame.

There are custom heavy 20’s out there, iffy on varmint work. They can come later once the 20’s prove themselves a bit more.

Lol, this thread may have well pushed me over the no looking back point on a 20BR.

 

[Tommie]

Hmmm I will have to chew on that a while.
“Practical” you do realize where your at here, lol.
I was inclined to go along with your idea on the 22 vs 20 a short few years ago.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
I then got educated one week on the plains, in the wind and mirage. I don’t ever see me not owning a 17 or 20 something. I am like others and would like to see available 55 and a bit heavier 20’s.

One comment I saw said mentioned going to a .22 if you want a 55. Well with that type thinking, if you want over a 55, go to a 6mm in 55-58……..etc……..would have been a shame.

There are custom heavy 20’s out there, iffy on varmint work. They can come later once the 20’s prove themselves a bit more.

Lol, this thread may have well pushed me over the no looking back point on a 20BR.

True words.

 

[pdhntr]

RAG, be careful with the Koolaid.

Jim

 

[muleystalker]

Yeah, I can only surmise they don't feel they would sell enough, since most would be using light weight vmax-like options (myself included) for most high-volume shooting. Still, all they (Hornady) would have to do is a thinner jacket using the ELD bullet dies and polymer forms...so wouldnt be a huge re-tooling investement.

I think part of the problem is Thinner jackets, Fast Twist Barrels and Very High Velocity doesn't mix well. Things start to blow up. I know a guy that was shooting the 6mm 87gr Vmax out of a 7.5 twist and could only get the to 3400fps and they started blowing up. Maybe they feel there isn't enough demand to justify all the work. I my self understand what your after and would love to see someone come out with some High BC heavy varmint bullets.
On another note I think a 22 Dasher would be a nice round throated for some of the heavy Bergers .22 85.5gr LR Hybrids and maybe open the tips up a bit and see what happens.

 

[RAG]

Rag -

Howdy, again !

Reviewed your post, and did not read any details on the rifle you would use the chosen chambering with ? Am wondering whether you would go w/ a single shot action, and how long a barrel you might be considering ?

The latter is of some interest, as use of long-er barrel lengths is a proven method for increasing a rifle's " expansion ratio "; for a given chambering & calibre.

The extra barrel length can be used to shift potential powder selections into a slower " burn rate range "; which is likely to result in an increase in load density; too. There are a goodly number of " temperature insensitive " powders to be found dispersed amongst those w/ burn rates slower than H4350. Therefore, going w/ a " slower burn rate " powder than H4350 shouldn't hurt anything, when sufficient barrel length is provided; and an informed powder choice is made.

I mention the above, as a possible route' to take towards achieving useful velocity, safe pressures; and very likely increased barrel life ( IMHO ).


WIth regards,
357Mag

Personally I only shoot heavy, single shot benchrest guns at Prairie Dogs, and build will be the same...likely with 28" HV tube. I dont know...maybe longer.