HELP WITH COPPER FOULED BARREL

[BoydAllen]

I don't know what your source was about benchrest, but in the short range game, you couldn't be more incorrect. They have a limited amount of time to clean and brushes are more the rule than the exception, and I have never seen anyone take a brush off at the muzzle. What was your source? Another thing, properly broken in top grade, lapped barrels don't copper much, the real bugaboo is hard carbon, that, depending on the powder being shot, can require some pretty aggressive cleaning to stay ahead of. If the powder that makes it wins matches, and you can only shoot well by keeping out the carbon, then you do what you have to. On the other hand, if you shoot 133, patches, Butch's, and bronze brushes will do the job, (without visible damage) and I have access to bore scopes. I never use sweets, and do not have copper problems. Generally, my loads run in the 3,350 to 3,450 region depending on what the barrel and bullet like.

Lest I sound entirely negative, I have great respect for anyone who carries the high master classification, and fully recognize that the requirements of highpower are much different than the examples that I gave. A friend who has put a lot of .30 cal. bullets down range, and who holds that same classification, regularly cleans with Sweets. The reason that I stopped using it was that I got distracted and left some for too long in a non-stainless barrel and pitted it. If I need a strong copper remover these days, for a barrel that has a problem (not one of my match barrels) I have several other options that work well, and which I think are more idiot proof.

 

[PALarson]

Boyd, I am not interested in a fight here, I have been in the shooting game for over 30 years and I stand by my comments. To each his own. I used to brush both ways and found many interesting articles about removing the brush after stroking down the bore. If you think about it the bronze brush shouldn't hurt the crown, however carbon hardness next to diamond gets collected in the bronze if brought back through the bore can and has damaged the crown of the barrel. Read how each barrel manufacturer recommends cleaning and most recommend removing the brush after the down stroke, it makes sense to me. As for cleaners sweets is great, it has it's drawback, it can and has damaged barrels by leaving in to long, that's something that must be remembered. It does remove copper better than most. Bach to the bench rest shooters, most also recommend not to use bore pasts. Don't know, I use it sparingly.
Paul Larson Mid range High Master Long Range High Master

 

[BoydAllen]

Nice post. It is only natural that there are differences of opinion on a topic like this. Looking at my post, it was more aggressive than it should have been. Thanks for keeping to the high ground. I take the same approach to abrasive cleaners that you do. Have you tried Pro Shot Copper Solvent IV? It is pretty active stuff, but a little hard on the skin, so I put on my gloves when I use it, which I also do with Patch Out. On the brush thing, one thing is for sure, there is no way that you will ever hurt a barrel by taking the brush off at the muzzle. The only question is whether it is necessary. For the last decade or so, while I was mostly shooting 133, (the cleanest rifle powder in my experience) I have reduced the amount of brushing, and done a lot of short stroking with patches before using the brush. Typically, there is nothing showing on the last patch before I start brushing. I made this change specifically to reduce the amount of hard stuff that my brush pushes up and down the bore. The results from this procedure look pretty good in the bore scope.
Boyd

 

[PALarson]

Well said, I agree with everything you said. I do think that we may be over cleaning our barrels. It has been said often that some light fouling fills the micro imperfections and therefore less fowling shots are needed to bring the rifle to it's best accuracy. I had a kreiger barrel that after about 80 shots would foul so badly that it wouldn't hold the 10 ring at 600, after cleaning it took about 5 or 6 shots to come home. In a 1000 point regional match it would cost me several badly needed points. I am not badmouthing Kreiger, it also was one of the best shooting barrels that I ever had. It found it's way on a hunting rifle, there it will never see 80 shots.
Lots of luck.
Paul

 

[CatShooter]

Boyd, I am not interested in a fight here, I have been in the shooting game for over 30 years and I stand by my comments. To each his own. I used to brush both ways and found many interesting articles about removing the brush after stroking down the bore. If you think about it the bronze brush shouldn't hurt the crown, however carbon hardness next to diamond gets collected in the bronze if brought back through the bore can and has damaged the crown of the barrel. Read how each barrel manufacturer recommends cleaning and most recommend removing the brush after the down stroke, it makes sense to me. As for cleaners sweets is great, it has it's drawback, it can and has damaged barrels by leaving in to long, that's something that must be remembered. It does remove copper better than most. Bach to the bench rest shooters, most also recommend not to use bore pasts. Don't know, I use it sparingly.
Paul Larson Mid range High Master Long Range High Master

I don't know where you get that figure, but you should do a Google search for "Moh hardness of carbon"...

Diamond is 10, Graphite is 0.5, and it is at the bottom of the scale, near talcum powder. And regular carbon (lamp black) is so soft that it is not measurable.

What shooters call "Carbon" is really an ash made up mostly of primer residue bound together with unburned nitrocellulose and it is not hard enough to scratch anything.

 

[PALarson]

I apologize to all for submitting false information.
PALarson

 

[Juma]

Use kerosine first then Autosol. Bet it comes up super clean.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Been using Montana 50BMG for a while now. I use a brush both ways. My 223's go 150 rounds before they need to be cleaned. As for the 22BR, it is looking like about 80 rounds is going to be the number on that one with dry bullets, not sure yet with the moly'd bullets. But will prob clean after each day anyway. Be it a 3X1000 or at Perry each days shooting. The one thing is, the 22BR will be onnly shot about three times a year. The rest of the time, I will shoot the 223's.

 

[SeabeeKen]

I use Montana xtreme copper killer. Great stuff. Wont harm the barrel if left in over night. Cleaned a friends 03 springfield that I dont think had ever been cleaned. It was pitted and copper fouled worse than any rifle I had ever seen. Took a week of soaking it but finally got all the copper out. Havent tried the foaming cleaner but will give it a go next time a get a nasty one like that.