HELP WITH COPPER FOULED BARREL

[GRobertC]

Howdy Folks;

I recently bought my 14 year old son a Remington LTR in 223 for his first rifle. It was in excellent shape used, previous owner said he put 30 round through it. I had forgot to ask him if he had done any type of breakin on the barrel but the bore did appear shinny clean. The plan on the first trip to the range was to put a round through it and then look at the muzzle for copper in the bore, and then clean after each shot for the next 10 to 20 rounds if it looked like it needed. This is the only rifle in the quiver in the caliber so I had to by a new Dewey cleaning rod. As luck would have it, someone must have messed around with the rod as the mail threaded brass fitting on the end of the rod was missing when i took the plastic cap off the end of the rod. So much for cleaning. My son really wanted to shoot so I said what the hell and let him put 70 rounds down range. Our local range is pretty strict so getting a good look at the muzzle isn't an easy think to do, but I was suspecting things weren't going to look good as the groups started to open up. Sure enough, the bore looked like I was looking down a piece of copper pipe. I went out and got a new rod today and went after the mess with Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV. Pure blue patches! I brushed and then ran patches through till they were clean, but the bore still didn't look clean. I did that three more times, but every time I brush again, it a purple blue mess again.

It was really pretty stupid on my part, I should have called it quits to regroup better prepared another day, but my son has been patiently waiting for the last two months as we build the rifle up and really wanted to shoot. I'm hoping we didn't just turn his LTR into an action to be re-barreled. Thoughts on getting the bore clean again and/or potential damage done would be much appreciated.

Sorry for the long post, but thought the back story might help.

 

[Lapua40X]

This stuff works pretty good but it still takes a lot of elbow grease to finish the job.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/784639/sharp-shoot-r-wipe-out-brushless-foaming-bore-cleaning-solvent-5-oz-aerosol

 

[bigedp51]

As stated above just use some foam bore cleaner and keep the cleaning rod out of the barrel as much as possible. More bore damage is done by cleaning than for any other reason.

I collected mil-surp rifles and they have frosted and pitted bores from shooting corrosive ammunition. Below is a 1943 .303 Enfield no.4 rifle after just one application of foam bore cleaner and firing over 50 rounds. After two applications of foam bore cleaner the barrel was free of copper without the use of a bore brush.

Spare the rod and spoil your bore.

 

[cmillard]

I start out with my normal cleaning and if I notice copper, I will soak a patch with shooter's choice (or anything with ammonia) and run it through one pass. I will wait approximately 30 seconds then take a new patch and soak with peroxide. push very, very slowly. you will then see the bubbly stuff come out of the muzzle before the jag/patch come out. I had a hart barrel that I had to do this to every time it took it out and shot it. the patch would have little thin strips of copper on it. I would then take a q-tip and put in the muzzle to look for copper after doing this. almost all of the time, this would take it all out. sometimes if it was real heavy I would have to JB the barrel then clean again.

 

[Lapua40X]

Here's another consideration to eliminate fouling from bronze bore brushes while you're in the process of cleaning things up:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/polymer-jags/

I started making my own after I saw these but, quite frankly, unless you're like me with nothing much else to do except play with your mini lathe and shoot rifles, it's probably lots less expensive to just buy them.

 

[GRobertC]

Hey Guys;

Thanks for the advice. I have a couple of hi end rifles being built so I will definitely invest in the bore riders. For now it sounds like one of the foaming barrel cleaners will be the ticket to get my son's LTR back in shape. Thanks again.

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, when you brush, with a bronze brush, you are grinding little particles off of the ends of the bristles, that stay in the bore. Here is what I suggest, use something to brush with that does not have much ability to react with the brush material. Brushing is mostly for powder fouling. Run a couple of wet patches of wet Hoppe's #9 down the barrel before brushing. The patches should be a loose fit so they leave a lot of solvent in the bore. Then wet the brush with the same solvent, and keeping the rod very straight and centered in the bore, brush the barrel 20 cycles from end to end, just letting the brush come out of the bore at the muzzle, without much rod showing. Work slowly and carefully. Then run another 2-3 wet patches through the bore, and then several dry patches. Next wet a fairly loose patch with your copper solvent and run it up and down the bore to thoroughly wet it with the solvent, next leave the barrel alone for 15 minutes and let the solvent work. run another wet patch of the copper solvent through the bore, and let it sit again. Keep this up for perhaps 10 patches, then dry the bore, and take a look at the muzzle, not looking down the bore, but at the side of the bore near the muzzle. If you run a dry white patch down the barrel to a point that is 2" short of the muzzle, and shine a small flashlight down the barrel, into the muzzle, the patch will act as a reflector and you will be able to see the inside of the barrel just back of the muzzle much better. Of course to protect the chamber throat a cleaning rod guide is a necessary piece of equipment for your cleaning kit, and you will need jags for your patches that are not the loop variety, either the kind that you wrap the patch around, or those that have a sharp point on their ends to pierce the patch. The main point that I am trying to make here is that if you use a bronze brush with a strong copper solvent you will always get color from the brush and " brush dust" in the bore reacting with the solvent. By using something that is not a copper solvent to brush with, and to wet patch after brushing, you will be able to tell if the color you see, when you use a strong copper solvent, is from the bore.

 

[Torg]

This stuff works:
http://www.eabco.com/KG12Copper.html

http://www.eabco.com/KG12Test.pdf

 

[bigedp51]

GRobertC

Below is a bore scope photo of a custom made hand lapped barrel that is smooth as glass.



Below is a photo of a factory made button rifled barrel before and after fire lapping.



Below is the same type button rifled barrel highly magnified.

Throat area.



Two inches from the muzzle.



The copper will be stuck in the bottom of the grooves and any type brush will not touch the copper. I worked at a military depot and saw foam bore cleaner being used to clean field pieces (artillery and tank barrels) I have used foam bore cleaner ever since then and it is a fantastic product.

With foam bore cleaner "YOU" do not do any work, no scrubbing, brushing etc. It is a chemical process that has NO adverse effect on your bore. On my milsurp barrels they all had cut rifling and were smooth compared to a modern button rifled barrel. "BUT" these milsurp rifle bores looked like frosted bathroom glass that you couldn't see through and over time and neglect they would become pitted and ate up like the one below.



Foam bore cleaner will remove "ALL" the copper from the bore without the use of brushes or harsh ammonia bore cleaners.

Foam bore cleaner was invented in the same country that brought you high quality Lapua brass.

http://www.milfoam.co.uk/barrel_cleaning_solution.html

"Milfoam Ltd is a Finnish company specialised in barrel cleaning solutions.
Milfoam Ltd products have been supplied to the Finnish Defence Forces and
many other end users worldwide."

"Milfoam provides a complete barrel cleaning system for all kind of firearms.
The system is based on a patented foam technology and NATO approved chemicals
and lubricants for Artillery, Mechanized units, Infantry, Navy and Air Force."

 

[Lapua40X]

GRobertC

Below is a bore scope photo of a custom made hand lapped barrel that is smooth as glass.

Thanks for that .... it clears up a lot of misinformation that I've relied on for a while.

 

[Ohio1]

Shoot some CFE223 powder, it will help remove the copper (at least it did in my 223 bolt gun!

Steve

 

[LHSmith]

I am of the school of thought that it is actually disadvantageous to remove every trace of copper fouling from the bore.....particularly in a factory barrel. I have always had better accuracy if I keep the amount of copper fouling to a certain level....your barrel will tell you what it likes. I like Shooters Choice or Butches Bore Shine with bronze brushes which let me control the level of copper removed. I don't buy into the foam bore cleaners due to the mess, the lag time, and the ability to totally strip out all traces of copper, of which I don't see the logic as the very next few bullets down the bore are going to just lay copper back into the crevices. You're fighting a loosing battle doing this...IMHO.

 

[GRobertC]

Thanks for the great info. I do have the correct jags and a bore guide, so I'm good in that sense. I have some others cleaners in my shotgun comp bag tha won't react with the brush so I'll give that a go.

 

[GRobertC]

GRobertC

Below is a bore scope photo of a custom made hand lapped barrel that is smooth as glass.



Below is a photo of a factory made button rifled barrel before and after fire lapping.



Below is the same type button rifled barrel highly magnified.

Throat area.



Two inches from the muzzle.



The copper will be stuck in the bottom of the grooves and any type brush will not touch the copper. I worked at a military depot and saw foam bore cleaner being used to clean field pieces (artillery and tank barrels) I have used foam bore cleaner ever since then and it is a fantastic product.

With foam bore cleaner "YOU" do not do any work, no scrubbing, brushing etc. It is a chemical process that has NO adverse effect on your bore. On my milsurp barrels they all had cut rifling and were smooth compared to a modern button rifled barrel. "BUT" these milsurp rifle bores looked like frosted bathroom glass that you couldn't see through and over time and neglect they would become pitted and ate up like the one below.



Foam bore cleaner will remove "ALL" the copper from the bore without the use of brushes or harsh ammonia bore cleaners.

Foam bore cleaner was invented in the same country that brought you high quality Lapua brass.

http://www.milfoam.co.uk/barrel_cleaning_solution.html

"Milfoam Ltd is a Finnish company specialised in barrel cleaning solutions.
Milfoam Ltd products have been supplied to the Finnish Defence Forces and
many other end users worldwide."

"Milfoam provides a complete barrel cleaning system for all kind of firearms.
The system is based on a patented foam technology and NATO approved chemicals
and lubricants for Artillery, Mechanized units, Infantry, Navy and Air Force."

I obviously need a bore scope, thanks, these are awesome.

 

[CaptainMal]

Barnes CR-10.

I hate copper fouling. Darn factory barrels not "broken in" and even some lapped ones need attention. Barnes CR-10 works but is not the solution ( no pun intended). It takes out the copper but does not cure the problem.

You have to lap that barrel smooth. Simple as that.

WOW what great borescope pictures.

 

[taxman]

Not an expert at all, the factory rifle barrels I have, generally copper more quickly than the Krieger barrels I have. My most recent Krieger, 6mm 1-13.5 twist for a 6mm PPC is exceptionally easy to clean. I use Patch Out brushless cleaner. With a good bore guide with the cleaning port(Sinclair style) I place a good amount of cleaner in the port and run a 3/4" patch down the bore and repeat twice to make sure the bore is saturated, let sit for 15 minutes, take a tighter fitting patch and run down the bore, repeat until patch comes out clean. I shot 1 shot, cleaned, shot 2 shots, cleaned, shot 5 shots, cleaned and now I am working on tuning the rifle. The first shot, the patches showed a lot of copper. After that first cleaning regimen, The patches show very little if any copper color. I am using LT-32, which seems to be a little dirtier than 133, and carbon is a tad more stubborn to remove. Accuracy is very acceptable at this point, smallest group to date is .082 with many .2' and .3's, but I am the early stages of tuning. Solvent and patches are far cheaper than a new barrel and chambering costs, we will see how this process works over the course if the summer!

 

[bigedp51]

I am of the school of thought that it is actually disadvantageous to remove every trace of copper fouling from the bore.....particularly in a factory barrel. I have always had better accuracy if I keep the amount of copper fouling to a certain level....your barrel will tell you what it likes. I like Shooters Choice or Butches Bore Shine with bronze brushes which let me control the level of copper removed. I don't buy into the foam bore cleaners due to the mess, the lag time, and the ability to totally strip out all traces of copper, of which I don't see the logic as the very next few bullets down the bore are going to just lay copper back into the crevices. You're fighting a loosing battle doing this...IMHO.

LHSmith

Having collected Enfield rifles and every bit of written material I could find, the British military felt the same way as you do. A issued Enfield rifle was inspected four times per year by the armoures and the armourers were the ones who mixed the copper bore cleaner solutions and removed the copper from the bores. The British military didn't want the common enlisted man "mucking up the Queens rifles". All that was done by the British soldiers was to pour two pints of boiling water down the bore and then using a pull through to oil the bore.

Having said that giving your rifle a shot of foam bore cleaner will not strip all the copper from the bore. On a milsurp if I want to remove all the copper the bore gets two applications that are allowed to soak overnight.

Depending on the rifle the foam could be left in the bore as little as 5 to 10 minutes and leave residual copper.

Also foam bore cleaners are "NOT" messy, only the people applying the foam are. :

Foam bore cleaners contain their own bore care preservatives and one or two dry patches are enough to remove the excess foam.

Even if you make your bore spotlessly clean without any copper in it, is the main reason why they invented the "fouling shot".

My main reason for promoting foam bore cleaner is to reduce the amount of time and frequency a cleaning rod is inside the bore and doing possible damage.

 

[boltman223]

Well, I guess i'll throw my two cents in too.

I have to agree with with everyone, using the foam bore cleaner works great! And less time with the brush in the bore is a good thing.

I use gun slicks foaming bore cleaner. I usually let it sit over night, put a couple of patches through it in the morning then let it soak again while I'm at work after that the copper is usually removed. If all copper is gone I then use bore tech c4 carbon remove, following the directions, after a two or three 10 Minute soakings and the prescribed scrubbing with a nylon brush all carbon is gone, even on my really rough button rifled barrels. Over the last eight years I have tried a lot of different thing and this has worked the best for me.

 

[L.Sherm]

Try remington 40X and nylon brushes it works great on getting the heavy stuff out then switch to montana extreme or wipe-out for overnite.

 

[PALarson]

A lot of good stuff here, read up on the cleaning method of the bench rest boys. First they rarely brush and when they do they remove the brush after each stroke. Many cleaners work, as far as I have experienced Sweets is the very best to remove copper. As has already been stated it is usually not necessary to remove all fowling, especially copper. the micro imperfections in the metal need to fill prior to the barrel shooting consistently. Try using Kroil first and Loosen the carbon, followed by swabbing with sweets or similar. Continue until most of the blue is gone. At this point it will shoot as good as it is capable of.
Paul Larson High Master and gunsmith