Help from someone who has used a boresighter

[hoz53]

My original installation was with lapped rings, as I always do. I swapped the rings front to back with no change in point of aim as shown by the boresighter. I put another set of rings on and the point of aim was nominally still the same. I put another scope on and that also changed nothing, so the problem either lies in the bases (I don't have a set of bases yet to swap on), the base holes, the barrel, the machined barrel shank, the threaded barrel hole in the receiver, the receiver face, or maybe some combination of those.

I would rather shoot more than less, too. When I went to the range with this rifle and barely got on paper, I did not get to shoot as much as I would have if I did not have problems. I also shoot at 1000 yards, so using a boresighter to check for what my zero should fall at on a new rifle is s big help. If I can eliminate some issues before getting to the range, I am for that. Using one for 1000 yd. shooting (as well as other ranges, but less so) is a big help in being safe, as we can't afford shots going out of club property.

If I had not bought the boresighter, I am sure that I would not have easily nor accurately discovered the continuing sighting issues and would have made multiple unsuccessful trips to the range.

I took Fred Bohl's advice and bought the boresighter, and I am now even more glad that I had after using it, as it has other uses. Fred Bohl has been helping me with use of this, and I do not doubt his claims, not that I ever did to start out. He knows how to really use these things to their maximum capability, and I am happy and lucky that he has been kind and patient enough to pass his experience and knowledge on to me.

As far as having maybe having been able to buy your unit for less, well, I never out a WTB in the classifieds, nor asked in topic if anyone wanted to sell theirs, and you did not state that you would want to sell yours, so a transaction never came about, and that is ok. I have one now, and that is what is important .

Danny

well the buy my bore sighter stuff was a little tongue and cheek and i forgot you have a drilled and tapped receiver not ruger dovetails but it sure seems youre making this more difficult than it needs to be. i think i could have figured it out pretty quick. if the boresighter helps you in some way thats great but i guess it hasnt helped you with your problem. when you shoot the gun do you get a nice group, just off to the side?

 

[hoz53]

The new purchase can't be that important because now you just have a bore sighter and a rifle that's still messed up. LOL . LOL #2

You can draw all the same conclusions with sighting issues by simply securing the rifle in a rest or cleaning vise, looking down the bore and centering it on a target then checking where the crosshairs are. I do it all the time. I never even drive to the range before checking a new scope mounting job this way. I'll know right away if there is an issue. No bore sighting tool required.

not me i just wanna tinker when im at the range (plus the neighbor gets nervous )but i use the same method when im there

 

[danny]

The boresighter, as mentioned, has helped me a lot. I found that the sighting error is not the fault of the scope or rings, and I did not have to waste travel time to the range or waste ammunition.

I never got the rifle on paper with full right windage, except for maybe one shot high and left, almost off the target frame that I was not sure I fired, so I can't say more about how it shot.

I am not sure how it seems like I am making this difficult, as I am systematically ruling things out. The next step is trying another set of bases, which I do not have. After that, if swapping bases does not solve the issue, I will put the rifle in the mill and will start to indicate the mount holes and a gage pin in the muzzle to see if the barrel and or muzzle are centered.

Right now, it is just simpler to to scope the second or third 1V .22-250 and figure out the issues on the first, later.

Danny

not me i just wanna tinker when im at the range (plus the neighbor gets nervous )but i use the same method when im there

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Alright. I know I'm beating a dead horse with my comments so this will be my last to danny.

Just so you realize, you don't have to be at the range to use the 'look through the bore' method either. I open my garage door and use the lamp in my neighbor's outside entry light as a centering point for the bore, then dial the reticle to match. In the past I've also used tops of fence posts, knots on trees, street sign letters, small rocks, etc... A 100 yard target at the range is nice to center up with, but you can use any sort of object to aim at when not at the range, just make sure it's at least 40+ yards away. Of course this method does not work for verifying very small changes in POA if say a group opens up a bit and you're wondering if your scope is holding zero, but I wouldn't trust a bore sighter for that task either because every time you take it off and put it back on the reading can change.

I have been in your exact situation twice before with factory rifles years ago, and those rifles never saw a single shot on paper until they were fixed because I noticed right away what was going on using the old 'look through the bore' method

 

[jepp2]

Just so you realize, you don't have to be at the range to use the 'look through the bore' method either. I open my garage door and use the lamp in my neighbor's outside entry light as a centering point for the bore, then dial the reticle to match. In the past I've also used tops of fence posts, knots on trees, street sign letters, small rocks, etc... A 100 yard target at the range is nice to center up with, but you can use any sort of object to aim at when not at the range, just make sure it's at least 40+ yards away.

The only boresighter I have is the cheap Bushnell one. I only use it for making sure I have my Chrony set properly. I'm not bashing boresighters. I would like to share the results I had yesterday from "looking through the bore" method. I needed to sight in 4 rifles. I had adjusted the 4 scopes "looking through the bore". Here are the first 4 shots (1 from each rifle) at 100 meters. I put them in a rifle rest at my house and sight at a distant house roof peak. Not nearly as good as using a light at night time. The key is making sure you are looking centered in the bore. You need to have equal amounts of rifling showing all the way around. If you do that the results can be very good.

 

[GSPV]

If your crown is cut perpendicular to the bore, this bore sighter is the bomb.

 

[danny]

This thread is a bit old, but I have not shot a lot lately till a week or two ago. I got the Bushnell Professional Bore Sighter that I mentioned. Fred Bohl here was a big proponent of my getting one and I am glad I heeded his advice. I used it initially to play around with the Number 1 mentioned above. With it, through switching parts and scopes around, I was able to determine that my targeting error is found in how the scope bases are drilled.

I have used the boresighter for other tasks as well.

A week or two ago I finally got to take out one of the three rifles that I had mounted scopes on since buying the boresighter. Initial shots were exactly on elevation and 1-1.5" right of zero! I had no doubts of Fred's claims then, and shooting only confirmed it. Fred shared with me in some PMs his techniques and theorey, and I feel fortunate about that. I have not yet been able to tighten up my techniques by using his knowledge, but I will certainly start to employ them as I go along. Still, even without, my first results were great and I really thank him for his help and knowledge.

Danny

 

[Kittitas George]

I've 'bore sighted' rifles in my shop @ about 30'. It is 2 person deal but pretty quick and have you on 'the paper' @100 yards. I do this when I can't look through the bore. I adjust the CH to the middle of the scope, turn the adjustment till it stops, then turn it to the opposite stop count the clicks, divide by 2, turn that amount of clicks to center, same for the other hair. Put the rifle in a padded vise, mount the scope, if you have windage in the rear mount 'eye ball' center. Set up a mirror so you can see thru the scope, into the mirror and back thru the scope. This can be a little time consuming and frustrating, that's the reason for the helper. When the mirror is at the proper angle, you will be looking at your eye thru the scope, now adjust the CH so it aligned with it's self. At the range (50 or 100yrd) fire the first shot at the center of the paper, if you miss the entire target, shoot each corner of the paper till you see a bullet hole, then adjust. When using the mirror turn the power down, also if using a bore sighter turn the power down. The mirror trick is the way expensive survey instruments are adjusted at the repair shop. The squares in the bore sighter are meant to represent an inch at 100 yards, but different barrel lengths and scope powers change the ratio. I just swapped scopes on a varmint rifle, a variable to 20X and a fixed 20X, so I set the variable at 20X so they would index the same. The squares in the bore sighter appeared the same size.

 

[CharlieNC]

Alright. I know I'm beating a dead horse with my comments so this will be my last to danny.

Just so you realize, you don't have to be at the range to use the 'look through the bore' method either. I open my garage door and use the lamp in my neighbor's outside entry light as a centering point for the bore, then dial the reticle to match. In the past I've also used tops of fence posts, knots on trees, street sign letters, small rocks, etc... A 100 yard target at the range is nice to center up with, but you can use any sort of object to aim at when not at the range, just make sure it's at least 40+ yards away. Of course this method does not work for verifying very small changes in POA if say a group opens up a bit and you're wondering if your scope is holding zero, but I wouldn't trust a bore sighter for that task either because every time you take it off and put it back on the reading can change.

I have been in your exact situation twice before with factory rifles years ago, and those rifles never saw a single shot on paper until they were fixed because I noticed right away what was going on using the old 'look through the bore' method

Luckily I can lower my garage door enough that my neighbors can't see that I'm aiming towards them. Also must use caution to only do this when my wife is gone, don't need to add to my oh sh*t list. Sighting thru the bore at 25-50 yd gets a shot on paper at 25 yd from which the adjustment is then close at 100 yd. I try to avoid using rocket science when a ball peen hammer is adequate.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

...I try to avoid using rocket science when a ball peen hammer is adequate.

Exactly right! LOL

 

[danny]

I've 'bore sighted' rifles in my shop @ about 30'. It is 2 person deal but pretty quick and have you on 'the paper' @100 yards. I do this when I can't look through the bore. I adjust the CH to the middle of the scope, turn the adjustment till it stops, then turn it to the opposite stop count the clicks, divide by 2, turn that amount of clicks to center, same for the other hair. Put the rifle in a padded vise, mount the scope, if you have windage in the rear mount 'eye ball' center. Set up a mirror so you can see thru the scope, into the mirror and back thru the scope. This can be a little time consuming and frustrating, that's the reason for the helper. When the mirror is at the proper angle, you will be looking at your eye thru the scope, now adjust the CH so it aligned with it's self. At the range (50 or 100yrd) fire the first shot at the center of the paper, if you miss the entire target, shoot each corner of the paper till you see a bullet hole, then adjust. When using the mirror turn the power down, also if using a bore sighter turn the power down. The mirror trick is the way expensive survey instruments are adjusted at the repair shop. The squares in the bore sighter are meant to represent an inch at 100 yards, but different barrel lengths and scope powers change the ratio. I just swapped scopes on a varmint rifle, a variable to 20X and a fixed 20X, so I set the variable at 20X so they would index the same. The squares in the bore sighter appeared the same size.

I have not really had luck with using mirror tricks. I know it works for many, so it is just my technique at fault. What I have been doing is using my rifle with a bore sighter installed, or counting clicks. When using a rifle with boresighter installed, I lay the scope in the ring bottoms and rotate the scope, then adjust the windage and elevation till they keep the reticle centered on a given point. I have only done one this way, on a used scope. What was surprising was that I could eventually detect some out of roundness with the tube. That is a caution for me to be careful with ring torques. That was a new to me used scope. I have to try it with a brand new scope to see what that is like.

Danny

 

[Bart B.]

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned the fact that several people shouldering the same rifle won't have the same zero for given ammo. A 1 to 2 MOA spread is normal

The bore axis direction during barrel time varies as we all don't hold the rifle identically. Bore axis doesn't point above point of aim on target equal to sight height plus bullet drop when the primer fires. It will when bullets exit the barrel.

I've seen this happen hot gunning the same rifle and ammo in 4 man team matches at long range.

Bore sighters gets you close but you have to refine the sight adjustments for your system. Note that all barrels don't wiggle the same from their static position while bullets go through them.

 

[Bart B.]

When using a rifle with boresighter installed, I lay the scope in the ring bottoms and rotate the scope, then adjust the windage and elevation till they keep the reticle centered on a given point.

That's a good way to center the scope adjustment optics on the optical axis of the scope.

It also reveals the alignment error between bore and scope ring axes. Few setups have zero error. Adjustable rings usually fix this problem and can angle scopes down like X X MOA rails do.

 

[Fred Bohl]

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned the fact that several people shouldering the same rifle won't have the same zero for given ammo. A 1 to 2 MOA spread is normal

Your point is valid and I tend to agree with the 1 to 2 MOA spread particularly for hunters but under 1 MOA spread for target shooters. I have a friend who is a 1/2 MOA shooter but has a technique quirk (flinch) that causes him to have a POI that is amazingly consistently 7 MOA low versus boresight zero.

 

[Bart B.]

Your point is valid and I tend to agree with the 1 to 2 MOA spread particularly for hunters but under 1 MOA spread for target shooters.

My experience is with upper ranked, prone, long range target shooters with a 30 caliber magnum having up to 2 MOA. Same folks with 308's, 1 MOA or more; especially with service rifles' 4.5 pound trigger pull that's difficult to master.

Want to see a rookie wide eyed slung up in prone? Give him a 3/4 MOA windage correction saying move your front elbow that's on the ground about an inch right or left.

 

[danny]

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned the fact that several people shouldering the same rifle won't have the same zero for given ammo. A 1 to 2 MOA spread is normal

The bore axis direction during barrel time varies as we all don't hold the rifle identically. Bore axis doesn't point above point of aim on target equal to sight height plus bullet drop when the primer fires. It will when bullets exit the barrel.

I've seen this happen hot gunning the same rifle and ammo in 4 man team matches at long range.

Bore sighters gets you close but you have to refine the sight adjustments for your system. Note that all barrels don't wiggle the same from their static position while bullets go through them.

I haven't gotten to use my bore sighters a lot yet, but I have figured that when I am centered up at 100 yds, 4-5 of my rifles show about one square left and about 4-5 squares up, if my memory is correct. The actual numbers are not too critical for discussion, but the numbers show that my zero is consistent, well, except for my Remington 700 17 Fireball, and both bore sighters show the same thing. It centers up well away from the others in elevation and windage. I shoot lefty. Also, I shoot a handgun right handed, but left eye. With the sights centered on the three 1911s I have, they have all shot to the same point of aim...just a bit high and right of the target. It is from how I hold a 1911...

 

[Bill K]

I had a problem with my Ruger No. 1 after mounting a scope and trying to get it sighted in. I bore sighted it on the target at 100 yds. and cranked the windage and elevation knobs on the scope like I always do, then noticed that I had to click full right to get it to look like it would get on paper. I never had that happen before, but I still cast some doubt on my procedure in that I might still be doing something wrong. I should not have second guessed myself. The bore sighting and first shots roughly agreed that something was wrong and that I needed full right on the scope to get somewhat near 0.

I am looking at getting the Bushnell Professional Bore Sighting tool with expandable arbors to use to try and help diagnose where the problem is, but not having used one, I am not sure that it will work how I would like. Maybe someone can help me.

I have read the .pdf instructions for it, and in seeing how they want you to align the bore sighter to the scope crosshairs, then locking the bore sighter tonthe stud, I am thinking that the bore sighter would simply align and center up with the crosshairs and not show any wwindage sighting errors, really only giving some ok elevation information.

It almost seems like to do what I want, you might have to have a way of leveling the grid in the bore sighter (by way of various means), then getting the rifle level at the same time, agreeing with the grid, THEN seeing what the error is on the scope, letting the crosshairs fall where they will.

Comments, help?

Thanks,

Danny

Save yourself some money Danny. Just bore sight with the bolt removed, on a spot on a target at 25yrds. Fire one round dead center and then dial your cross hairs onto the bullet hole, while holding the rifle steady on the center of the bullseye you shot at.
Now you can move out to 100yrds and fire a round and you should be on line, but maybe high, then just dial down to where you want the poi, either i.e. one inch high or dead center. Usually you can be sighited in with about 4 rounds.
Just a thought and so easy to do.

 

[hogpatrol]

With an autoloader, lever or other rifle you can't look down the bore, put up a big piece of paper at 25 yards, look down the barrel in the vertical and horizontal planes. fire a round, move crosshairs to POI. Move out to 100 yds, repeat POI process.
Disclaimer, good eyeballs, no glasses help.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If you have access to an online ballistics program such as JBM, it really doesn't matter whether you start the zeroing process at 100 yd. As long as you have a decent drop/windage dope sheet, you can start at 25 yd, where the chances you'll be off a 12" target (or larger) are much smaller. Once you've got a couple shots close to center, take it out to whatever range you wish using the the drop sheet.

 

[Bart B.]

Some years ago, I loaned my Sweany Site-a-Line collimator to someone for use on his Wesley Richards .470 Nitro Express double rifle. He noticed the right barrel bore axis was to the left of the line of sight. Left barrel axis about the same amount right. Several MOA apart. Muzzle bore axes' crossed about 20 yards down range