Help - developing a bad shooting habit?

[dnellans]

On a nice day at 100 yards I have considered myself a .5 MOA skilled shooter for the last year as my groups have gotten better as I practiced with a purpose. That seems to be the lower bound on groups I've been able to achieve consistently and rely on. Will some be higher, sure, some lower, sure but I'm surprised if something is outside the .4-.6 range. When shooting to test or practice I have always shot 5x5 groups taken the ES of each group, averaged it, like most guys have. Here is an example from 4/2/18 this year.



I started to have a problem that my groups were getting larger recently despite nothing changing with the gun or load. I was frustrated enough that I took out a few other guns and started to notice I was regularly getting .3MOA wide groups but .9 MOA vertical. I figured I must have developed a bad shooting habit suddenly and not realized it, so checked my bipod pressure, rear bag hold, etc. and things got better vertical but -worse- horizontal now.

I double checked scope tight, muzzle brake on, etc so I'm 99% sure its not the equipment, which means it has to be me. So I recently went out and shot some larger shotcount groups (15) at 200 yards and after reading Litz's book decided to look at mean radius as a better metric of how my shooting was doing.



Low and behold - I couldn't keep the ES of 6 groups under even 1 MOA at 200 yards despite this being the same load/gun as shot on the target above. These were slightly different seating depths on the bottom 4 targets (wondering if maybe my load just needed a re-tune) but they're all statistically identical. Seeing the higher number of shots in a groups at 200 yards though does show that in all but one group my wides spread shots are low left and high right, which seems to confirm to me that its something about my shooting thats opening these groups up with the outliers?

99% of my prior shooting for groups was at 100 yards using 5x25 and the ES methodology to figure out my accuracy. If you believe the math in Litz's book, that should have approximately the same statistical confidence as shooting groups of 15 with mean radius. That means a .5 MOA group from a rifle and a 1.0 MOA group (let alone 4) shouldn't happen by "chance" - I'm doing something wrong suddenly...

Any suggestions where to try and get back on point?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Trigger? Rest?

 

[dnellans]

No changes to triggers on any of the 3 guns that I've been shooting (but I also haven't cleaned the trigger specifically either). The gun I shoot most is a Ruger precision in 6.5 creedmoor that has a stock trigger but with the spring adjustment removed. Trigger pull on it is 13oz (and the 6 creedmoor is 13.9oz) averaged over 10 pulls. no SD in the pull of it.

Front rest on both RPR's is just a regular old harris 6-9 with a swivel lock on it. I put the feet on a small bag and "settle" them in rather than shooting it off a concrete bench. No change there either.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

It seems like you've covered a lot of the basics (especially from on the equipment front), so it's difficult to give you an easy fix here.

I'd suggest dry fire practice, maybe 100-200 "shots" a day at the smallest target you can muster. Obviously focus on the fundamentals of grip and trigger pull etc.

You could also "double plug" your hearing protection at the range, and lay off the caffeine/nicotine before you go. I know that I personally get very "jumpy" around gunfire for the first 10-15 minutes I'm on the bench; caffeine and nicotine only exacerbate the problem, and additional hearing protection helps quite a bit.

Edit: Lay off any alcohol the night before too

 

[ClassCat]

Have a friend load 25 for you. 22 live and 3 with no powder. If you flinch YOU are the problem.

 

[dnellans]

Thanks for the reply Mike - like most people, I definitely wanted to blame the equipment/setup before admitting I've developed some bad habit, but when you've checked all that and run out of excuses

I definitely will try and work on some more dry fire - I try to get a 100 dry fires a week in once the kids are asleep and I certainly don't notice any crosshair movement outside of 1/2 MOA, below that starts getting tough to resolve with out sub-tension ticks on the reticle (25x magnification)

I'm a diet coke drinker for sure but never thought to try and correlate caffeine with shooting. Next few times out I'll try and keep that to a minimum, certainly can't hurt! I definitely shoot worse when someone else with a brake is shooting next to me and we're not alternating shots in a rhythm so you know its not going to go off randomly. Maybe I'm getting more recoil sensitive to my own gun for some reason, I'll double plug my ears up and see if that helps with flinching.

This pattern of low-left to high-right on thsoe 200 yard groups makes me think I'm not square to the gun or something but I haven't been able to figure out the right tweak to get rid of that issue yet.

 

[T-shooter]

Clean and decopper your barrel. I looked back at some notes and a rifle and ammo that was shooting 3/4" at 100 yards went to 1-1/2" to 1/3'4" after about 200 rounds. After a good de-coppering, the group size returned to normal.

 

[rardoin]

I also advocate doing some dry fire practice. Set up just like your are live firing at the target and squeeze 'off a round' and see where your cross-hairs end up after the trigger follow through. If they are off the mark then your shot release is likely one contributor. When firing live rounds, where does the cross-hairs end up after follow through. If they are off horizontally, your shoulder angle/grip/cheek 'weld' needs to be re-evaluated.

I think you are well on the correct path to sort out your problem by including the possibility that your technique may be the issue. I have spent my share of time, sweat, and money chasing 'a load issue' when the problem was me.

 

[Forum Boss]

You a shooting a Ruger Precision Rifle, presumably with a factory barrel. That may be the explanation right there.

Looking at your 200 yard targets, you typically have one shot high and one low out of 15. That's not that unexpected.

You are shooting off bipod, Correct? What kind?

What kind of rear bag?

Is is a lot hotter where you shoot now? Are you leaving the ammo out in the sun. Is the barrel getting hot in those 15-shot strings?

Looks like you are using Starline for 6.5 CM and Winchester brass for 6mm Creedmoor. A change to Lapua may help.

Also, it seems you have tighter vertical with the bottom 6.5 CM row of Reloder 16. Maybe your H4350 load for 6mm CM (top row) is too hot for summer time.

But honestly, I think for shooting factory barrels off (presumably) a Harris-type bipod, you can "expect the unexpected" -- occasional shots that go way outside the group.

 

[dnellans]

Clean and decopper your barrel. I looked back at some notes and a rifle and ammo that was shooting 3/4" at 100 yards went to 1-1/2" to 1/3'4" after about 200 rounds. After a good de-coppering, the group size returned to normal.

Have definitely given everything a serious cleaning (twice) and no such luck on improvement

 

[dnellans]

I also advocate doing some dry fire practice. Set up just like your are live firing at the target and squeeze 'off a round' and see where your cross-hairs end up after the trigger follow through. If they are off the mark then your shot release is likely one contributor. When firing live rounds, where does the cross-hairs end up after follow through. If they are off horizontally, your shoulder angle/grip/cheek 'weld' needs to be re-evaluated.

I think you are well on the correct path to sort out your problem by including the possibility that your technique may be the issue. I have spent my share of time, sweat, and money chasing 'a load issue' when the problem was me.

I'm 90% convinced I don't have a trigger pull problem sending things that far out of wack, since cross hairs definitely aren't lurching that much during dry fire, but more practice never hurts.

Thats a good point about live fire tracking the horizontal though, I haven't tried really making sure things fall consistently back in line - I'm definitely going to try/note this... tomorrow =)

 

[dnellans]

You a shooting a Ruger Precision Rifle, presumably with a factory barrel. That may be the explanation right there.

Looking at your 200 yard targets, you typically have one shot high and one low out of 15. That's not that unexpected.

You are shooting off bipod, Correct? What kind?

What kind of rear bag?

Is is a lot hotter where you shoot now? Are you leaving the ammo out in the sun. Is the barrel getting hot in those 15-shot strings?

Looks like you are using Starline for 6.5 CM and Winchester brass for 6mm Creedmoor. A change to Lapua may help.

Also, it seems you have tighter vertical with the bottom 6.5 CM row of Reloder 16. Maybe your H3450 load for 6mm CM (top row) is too hot for summer time.

But honestly, I think for shooting factory barrels off (presumably) a Harris-type bipod, you can "expect the unexpected" -- occasional shots that go way outside the group.

Bipod is a standard harris 6-9, notched, rubber feet. Rear bag is pretty standard weibad mini range cube. Neither of these have changed in 2+ years on my setup.

All my group shooting (including those 15 strings) are slow fire, minimum 30 seconds between shots and ammo isn't chambered until ready to fire. On those 15 shot strings I also pre-load two mags so I'm not even breaking cheek weld to change mags.

I would love to be able to blame the equipment. I probably shouldn't have included that upper 6mm creed grouping as its a little confusing - I basically have never been able to get that to shoot despite 500 rounds of load development, at that point I was like - you know maybe its me. I went back to the 6.5 that -was- shooting .5MOA groups on its 1st factory barrel, I rebarrelled it with a second, and that one also was shooting .5MOA groups with an identical load. And now its shooting 1 MOA, which is why I've gotta think its me and not the equipment.

 

[Forum Boss]

Your last 6.5 mm Creedmoor group was 1.044 MOA, with only 0.332 MOA of vertical. And that's at 200 yards, where wind has 4 times the effect as at 100.

Honestly for shooting with a narrow Harris front bipod and Wiebad range cube in the back you are doing well. Face it Harris bipods hop and shake on recoil, and that rear cube is a joke compared to a proper large footprint rear bag with ears.

Most of your group is windage -- are you using wind flags?

Honestly, we see this all the time with Harris bipod guys. Then the shooter gets himself a front rest with 3" bag rider for foreend and his groups get way smaller.

And 1 MOA for 15 shots at 200 is very good for an RPR!

And if that second barrel is still a factory tube -- that could be 80% of your inconsistency right right there.

I can assure you also that 4x-fired Winchester brass ain't doing you any favors. That can easily give you some outliers.

But overall you're only getting two or three extreme vertical shots out of 15 with a set-up that even top F-TR guys would struggle with.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

^ boss is right on all points here

 

[mongo chicago]

DOn't know how many rounds through that barrel, but if its a lot, check your throat and seating depth.

 

[HillBilly98]

I promise I am just trying to help don’t know if it could be a problem or not but you said since 4-2-18 it has gotten worse. I don’t know where you live but I have noticed in the last several years my lack of abilities to shoot as well in the extrem Texas heat. I know that mirage can happen on cold days as well as hot days but seems worse in the summer obviously. Glasses and scope focus?? I can really struggle with the focus with bifocals when I’m sweating as my glasses move on my face more.

At any rate I hope you get it resolved. For me a bad day shooting (speaking accuracy not safety) is better than a good day working. I know it’s frustrating but hang in there.

 

[dnellans]

Your last 6.5 mm Creedmoor group was 1.044 MOA, with only 0.332 MOA of vertical. And that's at 200 yards, where wind has 4 times the effect as at 100.

Honestly for shooting with a narrow Harris front bipod and Wiebad range cube in the back you are doing well. Face it Harris bipods hop and shake on recoil, and that rear cube is a joke compared to a proper large footprint rear bag with ears.

Most of your group is windage -- are you using wind flags?

Honestly, we see this all the time with Harris bipod guys. Then the shooter gets himself a front rest with 3" bag rider for foreend and his groups get way smaller.

And 1 MOA for 15 shots at 200 is very good for an RPR!

And if that second barrel is still a factory tube -- that could be 80% of your inconsistency right right there.

I can assure you also that 4x-fired Winchester brass ain't doing you any favors. That can easily give you some outliers.

But overall you're only getting two or three extreme vertical shots out of 15 with a set-up that even top F-TR guys would struggle with.

I'm not doubting I could do better with better equipment, but the trick here is that for the last 9 months I -have- been shooting substantially better with the exact same equipment! Honestly 1MOA at 200 yards is probably all I need the gun to shoot for the PRS-type events I'm shooting, but when you know its been .5 MOA its not confidence inspiring to think you've got 100% more dispersion than you did a few months ago.

Second tube is indeed factory (I compete factory class), and that might be holding me back from being below .5MOA, but since I've managed to shoot hundreds if not thousands of rounds at ~.5MOA with 2 factory barrels, I don't see how that could be the issue going from .5->1MOA without explaination.

Until recently I was almost exclusively shooting groups at 100 yards where even a moderate wind should only account for an ~.1MOA dispersion difference. Even with a 5mph gusty wind (which it wasn't) at 200 yards, that shouldn't open up a .5MOA group at 100 to 1MOA at 200 yards should it? Playing with ballistic calculator for my windage calculations says it might be worth .2 MOA at most. I have also been shooting some 300 yard groups as well, but at 300 yards windage can definitely start opening things up and it becomes much less clear if its "the gun" or my wind calling abilities.

Here is an example of a day testing a few different loads at 300 yards in much gustier conditions. Still holding 1-1.3MOA across a variety of loads I was testing that day (except that pesky nosler RDF). I you had a "no wind" day, Litz's math implies that a .5MOA gun at 100 yards shouldn't be a 1.2MOA gun at 300 yards, nor a 1MOA gun at 200 yards. the inherent dispersion growth should be much smaller.

Maybe I need to shoot some groups at 100 again and see how they shake out.

[/QUOTE]

 

[dnellans]

DOn't know how many rounds through that barrel, but if its a lot, check your throat and seating depth.

Only ~300 rounds between that 4/2/18 group and 6/28/18 groups. Thats actually why I was testing seating depth in the 200 yard groups "just to make sure", but I don't think thats the issue. Still .020 off the lands for that particular load and its not all that sensitive to jump as indicated by those 4 groups that are .010 different each. from 2.85-2.89 COAL (not sensitive enough to get back to .5MOA groups at least)

 

[dnellans]

I promise I am just trying to help don’t know if it could be a problem or not but you said since 4-2-18 it has gotten worse. I don’t know where you live but I have noticed in the last several years my lack of abilities to shoot as well in the extrem Texas heat. I know that mirage can happen on cold days as well as hot days but seems worse in the summer obviously. Glasses and scope focus?? I can really struggle with the focus with bifocals when I’m sweating as my glasses move on my face more.

At any rate I hope you get it resolved. For me a bad day shooting (speaking accuracy not safety) is better than a good day working. I know it’s frustrating but hang in there.

Yup - heat and mirage def start becoming an issue at 300 yards for me, which is why I went down to 200 yards (and to reduce wind factor) for groups. The problem at 100 yards is 15 shots on the same group and the paper is blown away so that you can't use mean radius even if you're shooting 1MOA let alone .5 MOA. I'm not quite sure what the optimal testing range is to balance effect of wind starting to play into it versus shooting small enough groups you are punching big holes in the paper and you can't see each shot.

 

[Delfuego]

500 rounds on a 6 Creed barrel means your throat has moved a bunch. Check your loads and seating depth. Probably carbon too.

Shoot them again at 100y. I would also try shooting less time at different targets, black dots, green dots, something with a prominent aiming point. Try a few different types. Maybe try again but from prone. Listen to the Boss, he had good input. Also put down the books about shooting and go practice at the range