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Help a newbie (as in "completely ignorant to precision shooting" newbie)

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Hello all. I've never used a forum before. I am also just beginning to become interested in precision shooting. In doing so I have come to realize that I know less than nothing about it. The following is my set-up (yes, I realize it cannot be classified as a precision shooting setup, but it is what I have to work with at the moment, so be merciful). DPMS 16.5" AR15 Oracle carbine, .223/5.56, Nikon M223 3-12X42 optic, JP trigger. That's about it. No bipod, shooting prone, over sand bag at 100 and 200 yards. Can't seem to do better than 1.5 - 2 MOA. Yes I realize it's a carbine, and a "cheap" carbine at that, but still, I can't help but feel I should be able to do better at 100 yards. I was getting the same results when I had a REALLY cheap optic on it. Any advice for a novice? (please refrain from the obvious,"get a different rifle"). Thanks to anyone willing to take the time.
 
You did not say what type of ammunition you are using. If it's the typical 55 gr. full metal jacket you are handicapped right there.

If it's a good accurate AR-15, you gotta feed it high quality ammo. Factory ammo will never equal carefully made reloads, but Black Hills & Federal are high on the list of quality. Just keep away from the FMJ bulk pack ammo, especially any "Made in China".

The best factory ammo is loaded with hollow point match bullets.
 
Welcome to the forum. Many ar's can be made pretty accurate. A healthy dose of good ammo is a good place to start. Are you reloading for it or interested in starting a reloading regiment? I would suggest you start browsing on in the reloading section and the 22 caliber section. Lots of ar shooters on here. Take care
 
Thank you for the response. While I have not begun reloading, I do have a friend who has been for quite sometime, and has provided me with a "sample pack" of match ammo (off the shelf, and two of his handloads). His hand loads held the tightest groups (about 1" at 100 yards), followed, oddly I thought, by American Eagle Ballistic Tip Varmint rounds. The rest of the groups were in the 2" neighborhood, and were heavier bullets. The rifle, by the way, has a 1:9 twist (not that I understand the importnace of that yet). Thanks again.
 
Oh, sorry for the omission. The AE varmint round is a 50gr tipped bullet. The two hand loads were both 55gr, the off the shelf match ammo was 75gr SPM BTHP, 69gr GM BTHP, and 55gr SP GMX (not sure what GMX stands for . . .as proof of my ignorance). But, if I'm understanding this correctly, maybe my rifle (or at least the 1:9 twist) does actually prefer the lighter bullets?
 
The fact that your friends hand loads shot a 1" group is promising.
With hand loads tailored to your rifle it should do a little better.

Also with more trigger time groups will shrink even more.
John H.
 
i just hope that your considerate of others and if you have a break you leave others atleast one shooting position so you dont blast them. All i have to say is there is to much stuff to learn so start reading and your in the right place, lots of good articles here.
 
Here's an outline of some basic principles:

1. Determine your goal - what is acceptable - what is your purpose.

Do you want to be a competitive shooter, long range hunter, casual shooter, etc. - what kind of accuracy is required to meet your goal? Precision shooting means different things to different people - for me it's long range varmint hunting - for others it's the very demanding sport of benchrest shooting or for other it's "F" class shooting, etc.

2. Determine the capability of your rifle and ammo to meet your goals.

Without knowing or perfecting your equipment's capability in meeting your goals, you are in limbo and limiting your potential. For example, if the rifle / ammo combo won't shoot 1 moa off the bench with a solid rest - it's not going to be improved by shooting in the prone or off a bi-pod.

For testing your equipment, shoot off the bench using a solid front and rear rest designed for precision shooting. Take your time, shoot a five shot groups allowing 5 minutes between shots to allow the barrel to cold. Don't try to test too much in one day.

Before starting the testing program - See Item 3.

3. Learn the basics of rifle marksmanship.

The best resource I ever saw was the Manual issued by the US Army Marksmanship unit at Fort Benning Ga. I think this is available on line. Of course, the best way to learn is having an experienced shooter teach you. The senior members of most gun clubs will often help a new shooter - it would be good to hook up with someone like this - it will save you a lot time and aggravation. Look for someone who is a seasoned and active competitor.

Firearm cleaning and maintenance - learn the fundamentals to keep your rifle in top shape. Accuracy can be impaired if the barrel is too heavily fouled or cleaned improperly.

4. Practice - Practice - Practice.

Practice to master the skills - shooting is a perishable skill - you have to keep at it. Don't expect to shoot once a month and become a top shooter. :(

Practice does not mean shooting a lot of ammo indiscriminately - it means focused training - concentrating on the fundamentals - calling each shot - analyzing each shot - making corrections - it's hard work but can be very rewarding as you see yourself improve over time.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.
 
To try and catch up, there have been about 1500 rounds fired through the rifle (bought new).

I generally shoot no more than 75 - 100 rounds during one session, general average 50 rounds, after that I feel like I've either met my level of ability, or either I'm just reinforcing bad habits .

Up until recently ammo consisted primarily of the bulk box 55gr Federal.

The rifle is stripped and cleaned after every session (bore, bolt assembly, chamber).

Basic Principles:
1. I shoot IPSC, and enjoy it because I surpassed my expectations (not anything like an A shooter, just didn't think I'd do as well as I did going in). Kind of the same motivation with the rifle; unfamiliar territory, challenge of a new learning curve, access to 200 yards of safe range on my farm, and a desire to simply place the tightest groups that I can within that range. I enjoy the challenge, and development of focus.
2. In the process of determining capabilities of firearm and ammo.
3.&4. In process, you guys have already been a big help with that part, thanks! Very encouraging, lots of good info and direction. Thank you.
 
Just a suggestion and I don't see this recommended very often. Find someone that is an accomplished shooter that can shoot well and ask them to shoot your rifle. This may show you the potential of your rifle and ammo and give you a reference to strive for. If your rifle/ammo combo will not shoot better than your goal, you will not be able to tell if your shooting skills are getting better as you go. You could also find someone with a very accurate rifle and bench setup and you shoot it. That will show you your skill level and let you know what you have to work towards. Right now there are many variables and it's difficult to start eliminating them. My wife can shoot my target rifle in the .2's consistently. So when she does not do that well with her hunting rifle, we know it's the rifle/ammo/trigger/stock etc and not her. Just my thoughts.
 
1" at 100 yards off a sandbag with a factory rifle...even a bolt action..., no wind flags and hand loads not tuned for your rifle is pretty danged good!

Suggestions:

1. Get a free float hand guard.
2. Get and use forearm and butt "bag riders" see http://www.6mmar.com/6mmAR_Prices.html .
3. Get a *solid* front rest and rear bag. Need not be expensive.
4. Make and use some inexpensive wind flags. Surveyors tape fastened to the top of "snow poles" is a good starting point.
5. Get your bud to help you tune reloads to your rifle.
6. Take great notes. I use a log book that I make myself and I shoot on targets on a foam board. I transfer my notes onto the groups on the foam board and then I keep the foam board for posterity. I can always look back on the board and see what shot in what conditions.

FWIW,
 
Wow, I have to say I'm really impressed with everyone's willingness to help! After "stalking" a few forums I was really hesistant as it seems most threads lead to condescending argument and name calling. You guys are a class act. Thanks.

TheSnake, the guy that made the loads for me, while not a rifle competitor, is very knowledgeable, and can consistently hold sub MOA at 500 yards (using a Rem700, .308, AI stock, Vortex optic). I would consider this guy my local mentor, so to speak. However, I have four kids, and am in my last semester of nursing school, so a couple of my biggest limiting factors are time and money (as if those aren't everyone's limiting factors). So, there's a question there, it is easier for me to find the time to shoot alone, on my farm (maybe once a week), than it is to shoot with him (maybe once every couple of months). My plan is shoot with him, take notes, and practice strictly what we cover together until the next time we get together, so as (hopefully) not to reinforce the bad habits that I'm sure I have. My question is, does that sound like a reasonable course of action?

GSPV, a free float handguard (haven't committed to a specific brand yet, but leaning towards JP) and a bipod (probably a Harris) are my next planned purchases. About sandbags/rests; do you happen to know of a link to a kind of tutorial about using bags? Currently my bags are just that, literal sand bag under the forearm, and a home made sand sock under the butt. Pretty sure I'm not using them correctly, as I can feel the tension in my neck and back while shooting. I'm not ignoring everyone's advice about benching the rifle, it's just that won't have the opportunity in the near future. I WILL do it as soon as I get the chance. Also, MOA groups I mentioned were ocassional, not consistent, so I'm guessing the rifle, when fed the right ammo, can definitely shoot better than I can at this point.

And finally, any reference for optic basics; eye relief, parallax correction, cheek weld? As stated I'm using one of Nikon's M223 scopes, having a hard time maintaining a clear picture.

Thanks again, everyone. You have all been very encouraging.
 
Rix60, don't ever be hesitant to ask anything on this forum. Everyone here is fantastic and very willing to lend a hand or help any way possible. Best shooting forum on the net IMHO!

Back to your rifle, I read that you are limited on funds somewhat, but if you can buy a box of .223 Lapua brass and a box of Sierra 69 grain MK's and with a good small base die set that rifle will shoot tiny groups all day long. Lite them off with CCI BR-4 primers and some 8208 XBR or Benchmark powder. Guaranteed to bring a smile to your face! :)

Frank
 
You sure found the right forum. I am pretty new at this myself, although I have been shooting in the neighborhood of 53 years. These guys will help you attain your shooting goals and there is nearly never a disparaging word. That alone is a refreshing change from most other internet forums. Welcome to accurate shooter!
 
Parallax is pretty simple to set, look through the scope while the rifle is steady and without moving the rifle move your head, if the crosshairs move your scope needs adjustin. Screw in or out the eyepiece unti the cross hairs don't move. Save all your brass for reloading, when you start the learning curve you don't "need" expensive brass, but it sure helps later. If you want to learn how to reload, buy the Seria load manual and read it, great info for starting, and even some advanced techniques. I personally haven't got into the whole benchrest game, or any competitions, there are none around here, but love to shoot little bitty groups. Good luck, and remember follow through with the trigger.
 
rix60 said:
Wow, I have to say I'm really impressed with everyone's willingness to help! After "stalking" a few forums I was really hesistant as it seems most threads lead to condescending argument and name calling. You guys are a class act. Thanks.

TheSnake, the guy that made the loads for me, while not a rifle competitor, is very knowledgeable, and can consistently hold sub MOA at 500 yards (using a Rem700, .308, AI stock, Vortex optic). I would consider this guy my local mentor, so to speak. However, I have four kids, and am in my last semester of nursing school, so a couple of my biggest limiting factors are time and money (as if those aren't everyone's limiting factors). So, there's a question there, it is easier for me to find the time to shoot alone, on my farm (maybe once a week), than it is to shoot with him (maybe once every couple of months). My plan is shoot with him, take notes, and practice strictly what we cover together until the next time we get together, so as (hopefully) not to reinforce the bad habits that I'm sure I have. My question is, does that sound like a reasonable course of action?

GSPV, a free float handguard (haven't committed to a specific brand yet, but leaning towards JP) and a bipod (probably a Harris) are my next planned purchases. About sandbags/rests; do you happen to know of a link to a kind of tutorial about using bags? Currently my bags are just that, literal sand bag under the forearm, and a home made sand sock under the butt. Pretty sure I'm not using them correctly, as I can feel the tension in my neck and back while shooting. I'm not ignoring everyone's advice about benching the rifle, it's just that won't have the opportunity in the near future. I WILL do it as soon as I get the chance. Also, MOA groups I mentioned were ocassional, not consistent, so I'm guessing the rifle, when fed the right ammo, can definitely shoot better than I can at this point.

And finally, any reference for optic basics; eye relief, parallax correction, cheek weld? As stated I'm using one of Nikon's M223 scopes, having a hard time maintaining a clear picture.

Thanks again, everyone. You have all been very encouraging.
As far as making a good sight picture more sustainable, a set of Burris p.e.r.p. base ring combo is a good route to go to move the scope a little farther forward where it needs to be to get good sight picture. The are many other brands that do the same thing but are a little more expensive.
 
Look around and see if you can find one of these:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-vs-sf-ii.aspx

Not overly costly, get it in .308 Winchester and put some decent glass atop and it will do very well for a starter rifle and caliber!
 
One option for a free float tube (if you don't already have one) is Krieger's ARM-10A. I've got one on a .20 Practical and have another one on order.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Handguards-c1246-wp3395.htm
 
I knew that I found gold when I found this site. Most (not All) is great advice,I'd buy a good bipod and practice as much as I could afford.I think they make snap-caps for AR's. I have not used an ar since I got out of the Corps in 1970 but I like Harris bipods. Enjoy the sport !!!!!!!!!!
 
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