Help a newbie (as in "completely ignorant to precision shooting" newbie)

[TheSnake]

TheSnake, the guy that made the loads for me, while not a rifle competitor, is very knowledgeable, and can consistently hold sub MOA at 500 yards (using a Rem700, .308, AI stock, Vortex optic). I would consider this guy my local mentor, so to speak. However, I have four kids, and am in my last semester of nursing school, so a couple of my biggest limiting factors are time and money (as if those aren't everyone's limiting factors). So, there's a question there, it is easier for me to find the time to shoot alone, on my farm (maybe once a week), than it is to shoot with him (maybe once every couple of months). My plan is shoot with him, take notes, and practice strictly what we cover together until the next time we get together, so as (hopefully) not to reinforce the bad habits that I'm sure I have. My question is, does that sound like a reasonable course of action?

I also live way out of town on a ranch and never get to the range. Just walk out the back door and shoot. How about inviting your friend out to shoot at your place? If he lives in town, he may enjoy getting away from the rat race himself.
Cook him up a burger and he may never leave.

 

[jkats]

I didn't see it mentioned by anyone else, but if it was sorry for repeating. When i first got my dpms the trigger was my biggest limiting factor. I did some stoning on mine which helped a lot but it was still far from great, so that might be something you might want to look into also.

 

[rix60]

I installed a JP trigger kit in mine. So, I can't complain about that being a problem; it really is an incredible trigger.

 

[284driver]

+1 for jp. Stay away from jard.

 

[Lesloan]

I'm kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned that a 1-in-9 twist is pretty "iffy" when it comes to stabilizing bullets heavier than 69 gr. If you want to go heavier than that, you probably need a 1-in-8 or even 1-in-7 twist. (The term means the rifling makes a full twist in 9" for a 1-9 or 8" for a 1-8, etc.) Generally speaking, the faster the twist the heavier the max. bullet wt. 1-9 is fine for 52-69 gr.

Also, to see what your rifle will do with match ammo, you might try pulling the bullets in your FMJ stuff & replacing them with equal wt. or slightly lighter match BTHP bullets, for example Sierra Matchkings or Hornady BTHP Match. I've done this with some white box Winchester 55-gr FMJ ammo using 52-gr Sierra MK replacements and got surprisingly good results. You are, IMO, never going to get gilt-edge accuracy with military-grade FMJ bullets. Caution--if you go this route, do not replace the originals with heavier bullets. Same wt. or slightly lighter only. The guy who told me about this trick called the finished product "Mexican Match." I think these Mexican guys are on to something!

If you ever want to get a good bolt-action CF rifle, take a look at the Savages. I have a Savage Mod. 12 VLP with a heavy fluted 26" stainless barrel in .223 that shoots as good as any out-of-the box rifle I've ever seen. I bought it used in like-new condition a coupla years ago for $600. A real bargain, IMO.

 

[Forum Boss]

A lot of guys provided some very sound advice. I have a couple comments.

First, you may just have a 1.0-1.5 rifle -- even if David Tubb was shooting it. I've seen guys waste months and buckets of ammo trying to get a mediocre gun to shoot. And for a variety of reasons, a standard AR is not the most "user-friendly" platform for accuracy, unless it has a quality upper with an excellent barrel, a good trigger etc.

I tell every novice who wants to be a better shooter to put their short-barreled AR back in the safe. Pick up a decent bolt-action rimfire rifle, get a proper rear sandbag and a non-wobbly front rest. Fit a sled to the front accessory rail. Practice from the bench twice a week if you can.

You can get a very accurate rimfire rifle for under $500.00. An H&R m12 from the CMP can be surprisingly accurate. I got my m12 brand new a few years back for $300.00 including sights. Unfortunately, those opportunities are long gone. If you can't afford a rimfire rifle, ask around your local club. I bet some guy will be willing to loan you something pretty nice.

Then shoot the thing a lot. Shoot it at 25 yards until you can reliably put 5 rounds in the same hole. That will teach you about getting the gun still -- truly motionless -- and you will learn to manipulate the trigger. You'll find that very small changes in the way you address the rifle will show up on the target... even at 25m. But you'll be rewarded if you get everything right. After a couple months with a good .22LR you can go back to centerfire and you'll probably find that you do everything much better.

 

[rix60]

Thanks again, eveyone. From all the info here I feel I have a pretty decent starting point. The final purchases for this particular rifle will be a freefloat handguard, and a bipod. If I am able to squeeze my groups down to 1" or less, COOL! If not, well, the journey continues, either a new barrel, matched bolt, and upper are in my future, or (and probably more realistically), the purchase of a decent Rem700 and some good (unfortunately as determined by my wallet) glass.

Excited to start applying the information, may be a while, but I'll let you know how it goes.

-Richard

 

[Boisblancboy]

Look around and see if you can find one of these:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-vs-sf-ii.aspx

Not overly costly, get it in .308 Winchester and put some decent glass atop and it will do very well for a starter rifle and caliber!

I can vouch for the VS SF II. I have one is a .204. It's a stock gun and with hand loads can get it to consistently shoot 1/2 moa 5 shot groups.

I also agree with Forum Boss' advice, very sound information.

 

[rix60]

Hello, all. Update on progress: Well, last week I made it out to shoot with my buddy/mentor. The goal of the session was to determine the ability of my rifle in its current state, and my own ability.

Really no bad news to report, as both goals were met. Without going into a great deal of detail, ammo used, etc., here's the skinny recap. Had some great instruction from my friend. A LOT of it was a recap of most of the advice you guys posted, that was really cool. Oh, and I was introduced to a "hard-hold" over sand bags; took me a while to get comfortable with that, I'm used to cramming a sand-sock under my armpit under the rifle butt and squeezing it with my off hand when I shoot. My AR, in its current state (as described earlier), holds an inconsistent 1 to 3 MOA (yeah, pretty big spread. I was actually able to put a couple rounds on 12" steel at 300 and 400 yards (1 out of maybe 6 shots!). So, yes, the barrel will be freefloated in the next couple months (remember, I'm a broke dad of 4 and fulltime student! yeah, yeah, I can hear you all crying for me now). The freefloat will probably be followed with a new barrel and matched bolt later on, just doing it one step at a time.

As for my actual ability: This was determined by using my buddy's rifle (described it in an earlier post, 700 action and barrel, AI Stock, Vortek optic, over sandbags, using Federal Supermatch) . . .it felt like I was CHEATING! Groups at 500 yards measured 1 MOA. The most fun I've ever had with a rifle. I was even able to put lead on 12" steel at 300 and 400 yards with his AR15 carbine (Wilson Combat rifle, Vortek optic) EVERY time. Groups weren't as tight, but I mean, come on, it's a carbine.

So, that experience, along with the encouragement I have received here, is all I need to keep pursuing this endeavour! Thanks so much, it may be a while, but I'll keep you guys posted. Happy shooting!

 

[Leonardo63]

Welcome, and yes, I think this is the best forum on the net for all types of accurate shooting and all things gun related. It has been around a long time and has people from all over and of every level of shooting.
as for the treatment, it doesn't matter who, if you act respectful and have a discussion as if we were in the same room, there is never a problem and people are great. But every once in a while a troll gets through and tries to be an ass, it's just not tolerated. I've participated in several forums that cover my different hobbies, and I keep in mind, one day, out of no where, someone is going to walk up and introduce themselves as someone you've only known in cyberworld.... you want it to be a good thing! I've made lifelong friendships this way. It's a super kool feeling to me.
Keep on shootin! With all you have going on your lucky to have one rifle! and an AR at that?? that's awesome! LOL! Lots of luck to ya!

 

[dansig]

TheSnake, the guy that made the loads for me, while not a rifle competitor, is very knowledgeable, and can consistently hold sub MOA at 500 yards (using a Rem700, .308, AI stock, Vortex optic).

doing a 5" group at 500 yards isn't exactly hard.. my rem700 .300 win mag does 1.5" at 500m and that's just mediocre...

 

[stretch308]

#1. keep shooting.
#2. keep smiling, cuz you're shooting.
I am very famililar with the situation(4 kids ,2 jobs)so if yer out at the range yer doing good.
A few posts back the forum boss wrote really sound advice about a reasonably accurate .22 and practice at 25 til ragged hole groups r common.
.22 lrs keep you honest. breathe, smooth squeeze,and follow thru.
Be aware of your procedure,and try to be consistant.
Lastly keep shooting, its not wrong if you keep going bang.

 

[jonbearman]

One thing I would suggest is get a scope in the power range of 6-24 or 6-20 roughly so you can see the target well and beable to aim at the same exact spot. Weaver makes a 40/44 model that is 6.5x20x40 for less than 200.00 at natchez shooters supply. When they go on sale they can be had even cheaper. The full metal jacket stuff you fire is actually loaded to provide 2 moa min at 100 yds.

 

[M14AMU]

You need to do a LOT OF READING!

Here's one good source:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/

 

[NateHaler]

Find a friend or kindly stranger who has a known-to-be very accurate rifle. Shoot some groups with it using known-to-be accurate loads. If you can shoot sub-moa, reliably, then you'll understand that it's not so much user error with your own gear. It's your gear.

In which case, starting doing your homework, and read, read, and read some more. It's all about ammo, a good barrel, and fundamentally sound marksmanship. You're gonna have to walk before you run. But the learning curve can be relatively short, depending on your commitment.

Last but never least, get a really good .22. It's a superb way to learn to shoot, and is a lot of fun and inexpensive. Or a really good pellet rifle. Basic skills are always worth learning. They pay dividends the rest of your days.

 

[NateHaler]

TheSnake, the guy that made the loads for me, while not a rifle competitor, is very knowledgeable, and can consistently hold sub MOA at 500 yards (using a Rem700, .308, AI stock, Vortex optic).

doing a 5" group at 500 yards isn't exactly hard.. my rem700 .300 win mag does 1.5" at 500m and that's just mediocre...

OP, disregard such claims as above. They're no more helpful than watching a Fast and Furious movie and thinking that it's reality.

 

[dansig]

TheSnake, the guy that made the loads for me, while not a rifle competitor, is very knowledgeable, and can consistently hold sub MOA at 500 yards (using a Rem700, .308, AI stock, Vortex optic).

doing a 5" group at 500 yards isn't exactly hard.. my rem700 .300 win mag does 1.5" at 500m and that's just mediocre...

OP, disregard such claims as above. They're no more helpful than watching a Fast and Furious movie and thinking that it's reality.

helpful or not it's just a simple fact, to be able just to shoot MOA means that you don't practice.. anyone with good range time can do much better than 1 MOA at any range with a decent rifle.

 

[NateHaler]

helpful or not it's just a simple fact, to be able just to shoot MOA means that you don't practice.. anyone with good range time can do much better than 1 MOA at any range with a decent rifle.

Not true. I've been to quite a few matches over the years, including national championships. Including shooters who are the best there are. And depending on conditions, shooting MOA can be extremely challenging, once you get past 200y or 300y. Your claim of "much better than 1 MOA at any range" is ludicrous.

Reliable sub-moa performance requires the right combination of shooter/gear/conditions. Lots of guys get lucky once in a while, and shoot a 3-round group that they decide not to risk by shooting shots 4 and 5. So they stick that target in their wallet or on their wall, and brag about it. Like it's the norm. It's not.

The OP is looking to join the 1 MOA club, and that's a good start. It's not difficult once you understand what's involved. But you're not doing him, or the sport, any favors by claiming sub-moa is a piece of cake. As to your description of 1.5" groups at 500y being "mediocre", the only reaction that deserves is :

 

[nosualc]

helpful or not it's just a simple fact, to be able just to shoot MOA means that you don't practice.. anyone with good range time can do much better than 1 MOA at any range with a decent rifle.

In my experience, this is absolutely not true...

As a volunteer at my club's "public deer rifle sight-in", it's shocking to see how rare 1 moa shooting really is in the general public. I'll bet less than 3 of 100 can shoot 1moa at even 100 yards. At 500 this is an order of magnitude more difficult.

I teach a long range qualification class at the the same club, and we qualify our members for long range shooting by requiring they shoot 5 shots into a 9" paper plate at 300 yards (3moa). Given enough time, most qualify. Few if any put em in 3". These are motivated shooters with quality equipment.

I shoot in an f-class league; we shoot every week at 600 yds. Of the 40-50 regular shooters, only a very very few have ever shot clean targets (<= 1 moa over 20 shots).

Just because we hang around with fellow accuracy nuts who expect extreme accuracy, does not mean that it's easy, or common, and it does a disservice to new shooters to tell them they should expect such results.

A true 1 MOA shooter at 100 yds is a GREAT goal for a novice to aspire to.

-nosualc

 

[dansig]

ofcource it's not for everyone to shoot sub moa, it takes practice, skill and gear..

but I bet 90% of those that really want to shoot sub MOA can do that if they practice enough.

doing a .25" 5 shot group at 100m is quite easy with a 6mm BR and a good rest, .4" on bipod.

just came from the range, did 3x 5 shot groups at 300m all under .3 MOA with 6mm BR.


using a factory rifle with light barrel and stock ammo will never get anyone below 1 MOA, but a custom rifle and handloads will do that easily.