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Heavy vs light bullet Wind drift

RampedRaptor

Gold $$ Contributor
Hello all,

Like many I spend too much time looking at ballistic calculators and plugging numbers.

I’ve been kicking around the idea picking up another barrel and would like something to cheat the wind a little.

I shoot a 6 creed now but would like to play with the saum/wsm case.

I’m just not seeing a wind drift advantage with a 300 wsm vs a 6 creed at 1000yds like I had thought I would.

Reference to a 208gr bullet vs 115gr.


My question: 2 bullets with the same bc at the same velocity but bullet A weighs 100 grains more than bullet B. Shouldn’t the wind have less influence over the heavy bullet?


Thanks,
RR
 
What the programs cannot show is INERTIA... spent a few years testing the same ballistics of light vs heavy... the heavy won every time at longer distances and in higher winds.

So, you are correct. The heavier bullet will maintain its trajectory more reliably then the ballistic "twin" with lighter mass. wind is not steady nor is it consistent over long distances of terrain.

Heavier bullets are less sensitive to the small changes through its flight.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Intertia! that’s what I keep thinking should decrease/stunt the effects of wind throughout the bullets trajectory. I guess this is a more of a real hand results vs program prediction type of thing
 
Try using the figures for the exact bullet like these in 30 caliber in your ballistics calculator.

View attachment 1039502
The BC you offered is higher than what I had originally imputed. With .348 the 30 cal is coming ahead by .2mil at 1k with a 10mph wind. Little advantage if that BC is accurate but still not near the wind insensitivity I anticipated from a 30 cal “short magnum”.
 
Wind speed gets higher the further it is above ground. Depends on terrain. No ballistic software includes options for terrain from smooth and flat to uneven high brush or trees.

Sierra's software does let wind speeds to be entered for different range bands.
 
The BC already takes mass and sectional density into account. In theory, two bullets that have the exact same BC, sectional density, and muzzle velocity, but are of different weight, will exhibit similar external ballistics. In reality, the muzzle velocities of two bullets will rarely be exactly the same if there is a dramatic different in weight between the two. Although there are plenty of exceptions, it is fairly common to see a general trend of BC increasing as bullet weight increases. However, in a case where two bullets are of the same caliber, but one is much lighter in weight than the other and has a lower BC, unless the BCs are very close to start with (within about 5% or less), it is usually not possible to push the lighter, lower BC bullet fast enough to overcome the BC deficit at safe operating pressures.
 
If different bullets are provided at the same drag & speed, bullet weight difference(or anything else) means nothing further to wind drift.
 
What the programs cannot show is INERTIA... spent a few years testing the same ballistics of light vs heavy... the heavy won every time at longer distances and in higher winds.

So, you are correct. The heavier bullet will maintain its trajectory more reliably then the ballistic "twin" with lighter mass. wind is not steady nor is it consistent over long distances of terrain.

Heavier bullets are less sensitive to the small changes through its flight.

YMMV

Jerry
I tend to agree with this.
 
Sorry mate but BC and velocity dictates the trajectory. Weight of the projectile only affects impact energy and recoil.

Kinda....

Inertia of a heavier bullet can’t always overcome the greater windage it presents.

As in most everything, you have to find a balance that works best for the conditions presented to you.

Trajectory’s only two dimensions: horizontal travel / vertical displacement. Windage is the 3rd dimesion where Time of Travel affects how long a bullet’s windage is being acted upon by the wind that’s present along its flight path.

Shoot 155’s @ 1,000 yards if you want to learn to read the wind.
 
Last edited:
Hello all,

Like many I spend too much time looking at ballistic calculators and plugging numbers.

I’ve been kicking around the idea picking up another barrel and would like something to cheat the wind a little.

I shoot a 6 creed now but would like to play with the saum/wsm case.

I’m just not seeing a wind drift advantage with a 300 wsm vs a 6 creed at 1000yds like I had thought I would.

Reference to a 208gr bullet vs 115gr.


My question: 2 bullets with the same bc at the same velocity but bullet A weighs 100 grains more than bullet B. Shouldn’t the wind have less influence over the heavy bullet?


Thanks,
RR
Yep.
Shoot a 150gr 308 vs 50gr 223 @100 in a 20mph crosswind and you'll see.
 
If different bullets are provided at the same drag & speed, bullet weight difference(or anything else) means nothing further to wind drift.

Not so.

Take two bullets of different weights but with a shared form factor in a calibre, ie they exhibit the same drag relationship to the G-whatever reference projectile.

Then give them equivalent MVs. And how do we know what they are? They're MVs that produce the same ME values. To take an FTR example comparing the 155.5gn Berger .308 to a 200gn model. If the 155.5's MV is 3,100 fps MV that's 3,319 ft/lb ME. To achieve that same ME with the 200gn model, the MV is 2,733.5 fps and so that's the ballistic equivalent and is normally achievable within the same pressures, changing powder grades as needed.

Then run the pair through a ballistics program. You'll find the heavier bullet outperforms the lighter one in terms of wind drift. If you want to try it for yourself and we stick to 30-cal models, Berger's 175gn OTM Tactical and Sierra's 210gn MK have near identical form factor values (1.002 v 1.000), ie in ballistic / drag terms they match the G7 reference. Let's give the 175 an MV of 2,800 fps which is 3,047 ft/lb ME. The 210 needs an MV of 2,556 fps to match that. Their G7 BCs are 0.263 and 0.316 respectively. (Form factor and BC values from Bryan Litz's Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets third edition.)

The 0.263 BC 175 @ 2,800 fps MV moves 88.12 inches in the classic 10 mph crosswind at 1,000 yards.
The 0.316 BC 210 @ 2,556 fps MV moves 78.95 inches, a 10% reduction.

Another gain for the heavier model is terminal velocity. The 210 is calculated to have a retained velocity of 1,343 fps at 1,000 yards against the 175's 1,308, so in this 308 Win type example, the 210 just stays above transonic speeds while the 175 slips into them.

On trajectory shape, the 175 shoots a bit flatter with an MRT of ~118 inches against ~125 for the 210. The latter will also produce significantly more torque and recoil in any given weight rifle.

As the heavier' model's downsides are more recoil and a higher trajectory, tactical competitors and varmints shooter might prefer lighter bullets and accept a bit more wind drift, while the BR and prone competitor in known-distance shooting will go for less windage every time.

I was surprised the first time I did this using a couple of different weight thirties with near identical Litz G7 form factors and redid the sums several times convinced I had to be doing something wrong. 'Common sense' says that if the drag curve based form factors are the same and MVs are equivalent, then the bullets should behave in the wind the same way at say 1,000 yards. I eventually contacted Bryan who confirmed my findings - the heavier model of a pair with identical drag factors always outperforms the lighter in this (wind) respect.
 
Not so.

Take two bullets of different weights but with a shared form factor in a calibre, ie they exhibit the same drag relationship to the G-whatever reference projectile.

Then give them equivalent MVs. And how do we know what they are? They're MVs that produce the same ME values. To take an FTR example comparing the 155.5gn Berger .308 to a 200gn model. If the 155.5's MV is 3,100 fps MV that's 3,319 ft/lb ME. To achieve that same ME with the 200gn model, the MV is 2,733.5 fps and so that's the ballistic equivalent and is normally achievable within the same pressures, changing powder grades as needed.

Then run the pair through a ballistics program. You'll find the heavier bullet outperforms the lighter one in terms of wind drift. If you want to try it for yourself and we stick to 30-cal models, Berger's 175gn OTM Tactical and Sierra's 210gn MK have near identical form factor values (1.002 v 1.000), ie in ballistic / drag terms they match the G7 reference. Let's give the 175 an MV of 2,800 fps which is 3,047 ft/lb ME. The 210 needs an MV of 2,556 fps to match that. Their G7 BCs are 0.263 and 0.316 respectively. (Form factor and BC values from Bryan Litz's Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets third edition.)

The 0.263 BC 175 @ 2,800 fps MV moves 88.12 inches in the classic 10 mph crosswind at 1,000 yards.
The 0.316 BC 210 @ 2,556 fps MV moves 78.95 inches, a 10% reduction.

Another gain for the heavier model is terminal velocity. The 210 is calculated to have a retained velocity of 1,343 fps at 1,000 yards against the 175's 1,308, so in this 308 Win type example, the 210 just stays above transonic speeds while the 175 slips into them.

On trajectory shape, the 175 shoots a bit flatter with an MRT of ~118 inches against ~125 for the 210. The latter will also produce significantly more torque and recoil in any given weight rifle.

As the heavier' model's downsides are more recoil and a higher trajectory, tactical competitors and varmints shooter might prefer lighter bullets and accept a bit more wind drift, while the BR and prone competitor in known-distance shooting will go for less windage every time.

I was surprised the first time I did this using a couple of different weight thirties with near identical Litz G7 form factors and redid the sums several times convinced I had to be doing something wrong. 'Common sense' says that if the drag curve based form factors are the same and MVs are equivalent, then the bullets should behave in the wind the same way at say 1,000 yards. I eventually contacted Bryan who confirmed my findings - the heavier model of a pair with identical drag factors always outperforms the lighter in this (wind) respect.
As always Laurie a pleasure to read.
Thank you very much.
 
For those of you for whom seeing is more convincing than calculating I suggest a test. This was actually done at my suggestion by some short range shooters. On a day when the wind is varied and relatively steady for periods of time, when both left and right are seen, put two shooters on adjacent benches firing at targets that are side by side at the same distance. With both holding center, shooting the loads that they would be in competition with a particular bullet/caliber combination, have both shooters fire at the same time choosing wind conditions that will show the most deflection both left and right. Since muzzle brakes are allowed for long range benchrest it may be desirable to skip a bench between shooters to make sure that muzzle blast from one rifle does not affect the bullet from the other. Since both shooters will be shooting at the exact same instant, comparing the width of their groups should either verify or disprove what ballistics software has predicted. For this test, the velocities do not have to be the same because what is important is the real world effects of the wind at the velocities that have proven to be the most accurate for those particular combinations, the velocities that would actually be used in competition.
 
For those of you for whom seeing is more convincing than calculating I suggest a test. This was actually done at my suggestion by some short range shooters. On a day when the wind is varied and relatively steady for periods of time, when both left and right are seen, put two shooters on adjacent benches firing at targets that are side by side at the same distance. With both holding center, shooting the loads that they would be in competition with a particular bullet/caliber combination, have both shooters fire at the same time choosing wind conditions that will show the most deflection both left and right. Since muzzle brakes are allowed for long range benchrest it may be desirable to skip a bench between shooters to make sure that muzzle blast from one rifle does not affect the bullet from the other. Since both shooters will be shooting at the exact same instant, comparing the width of their groups should either verify or disprove what ballistics software has predicted. For this test, the velocities do not have to be the same because what is important is the real world effects of the wind at the velocities that have proven to be the most accurate for those particular combinations, the velocities that would actually be used in competition.
I guess I'm interested in your findings.
 
I have no findings. I was just suggesting a test that goes directly to the point of what the real world results are. Generally we know that there are trade offs. Higher recoiling (larger caliber, heavy bullet, big case) combinations tend to shine as the wind becomes more challenging, but it would not be a good idea to bet against a good Dasher or 6BRA on a day when the wind is more moderate.
 
Remember, fellow wind drifters, bullets' drift up to 3 times as much per yard of downrange flight in the last third of target range than the first third. And the wind in the first third of range causes near 3 times the total drift at target range as wind only in the last third.

This assumes crosswind speed is constant.
 
I have no findings. I was just suggesting a test that goes directly to the point of what the real world results are. Generally we know that there are trade offs. Higher recoiling (larger caliber, heavy bullet, big case) combinations tend to shine as the wind becomes more challenging, but it would not be a good idea to bet against a good Dasher or 6BRA on a day when the wind is more moderate.
Yes, I hate to even open my mouth in this discussion. No matter the comparison, anywhere, will the input be linear?
 

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