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WIND DRIFT VS. B C QUESTION

The reason I ask is when I shoot with a friend of mine , My 30-06 with a Sierra 210gr. MK bullet 670 B.C. that is traveling slower than his 6.5 Creedmoor 147gr. ELDm bullet 697 B.C. will hit the target before his bullet. Of course I will need more elevation to get to 1000 yards, but my bullet will pass his at around 800 yards. Even though his bullet is going faster with a higher B.C. It is very noticeable with the sound of the bullet hitting the gong and seeing the impact.
 
The reason I ask is when I shoot with a friend of mine , My 30-06 with a Sierra 210gr. MK bullet 670 B.C. that is traveling slower than his 6.5 Creedmoor 147gr. ELDm bullet 697 B.C. will hit the target before his bullet. Of course I will need more elevation to get to 1000 yards, but my bullet will pass his at around 800 yards. Even though his bullet is going faster with a higher B.C. It is very noticeable with the sound of the bullet hitting the gong and seeing the impact.
Going slower
and has less BC
But hits the target quicker
----------------------------
Very interesting to me...
Standing by to hear theories
 
The reason I ask is when I shoot with a friend of mine , My 30-06 with a Sierra 210gr. MK bullet 670 B.C. that is traveling slower than his 6.5 Creedmoor 147gr. ELDm bullet 697 B.C. will hit the target before his bullet. Of course I will need more elevation to get to 1000 yards, but my bullet will pass his at around 800 yards. Even though his bullet is going faster with a higher B.C. It is very noticeable with the sound of the bullet hitting the gong and seeing the impact.
I ran some numbers I made up some velocity’s I put 30/06 at 2500 and 6.5 at 2500 and the last pic is 2600 for 6.5. You’re talking about .010 of a seconds I doubt you can shoot that fast. Those are crazy close ballistics.
IMG_0569.pngIMG_0570.pngIMG_0571.png
 
The reason I ask is when I shoot with a friend of mine , My 30-06 with a Sierra 210gr. MK bullet 670 B.C. that is traveling slower than his 6.5 Creedmoor 147gr. ELDm bullet 697 B.C. will hit the target before his bullet. Of course I will need more elevation to get to 1000 yards, but my bullet will pass his at around 800 yards. Even though his bullet is going faster with a higher B.C. It is very noticeable with the sound of the bullet hitting the gong and seeing the impact.
Conservation of momentum = mass X velocity explains the difference in impact and movement of steel targets. While there is also conservation of energy, it can be lost via heat and other forms vs transfer to the target. This is actually a typical physics lab problem.
 
Conservation of momentum = mass X velocity explains the difference in impact and movement of steel targets. While there is also conservation of energy, it can be lost via heat and other forms vs transfer to the target. This is actually a typical physics lab problem.
You nailed!!!
The classic collision problems on the air hockey table and two steel hockey pucks!!!
Or the 5 steel ball pendulums!!!! Where the 30-06 bullet equates to pulling 3 balls and the 6.5 would be a 2 ball pull!!!
I've built a few ballistic pendulum in my earlier years!!!
This is a prime example of avoiding energy at the terminal stage of ballistics!!! The "lethality formula" is closer to a momentum formula than an energy formula when comparing the ratio of exponential powers of mass and velocity in the equation!!!!
 
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Does anyone know if ballistic programs use the same equation to calculate bullet drop and wind drift?
I would think the effect of wind (horizontal deflection) would have a different equation than gravity (vertical)
 
My rifle has a 30" straight cylinder barrel 52.5 grs. of IMR 4350 and his a TIKA 3 with 42.5 grs. of RL 16 powder. My velocity was around 2680 fps according to the JBM chart. His was more. That's all I know but was surprised at the results. Maybe it was a fluke thing.
 
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Looking at it from fundamental physics, the wind deflection is based on the perpendicular wind velocity vector and cross sectional area of the bullet, where the bullet drop is based on time of flight at a certain distance from the muzzle and the angle of fire!!!


I’d add that BC is based on the empirical performance (measured in known conditions) of several distinct prototypical shapes of the bullets we use. There is literally a 1.0 pound projectile of an established and immutable shape that defines G1 drift and drop characteristics fired at a certain velocity and set of conditions, and our bullets were traditionally rated against it, with it having the reference BC of 1.0.

This is conceptually similar to the physical, reference “kilogram” that there are maybe 20 examples of spread around the world. There is nothing special about a kilogram (or gram), all things obviously weigh more or less, but we all need to agree on what a kilogram is, so they were meticulously ground from material of exceedingly low atomic decay rate, and all of the same material as they would otherwise start diverging from each other, immediately.

The G1 projectile looks like a WWI era shape, and our boat tail bullets’ performances don’t “trail off” as rapidly as its performance does, so several other shapes were established to attempt to cover the various form factors of bullets made. Still, I haven’t seen a proper G7 BC reorder the bullets we use, or even alter their relative advantages to each other.

To me, the 750 Amax 50 cal at slightly over a 1.0 G1, is seemingly the commercial “wall”, and for ease I mentally compare everything available to it, such that a 250 gets substantially there, for example, with a third the weight at an .878 BC.
 
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I’d add that BC is based on the empirical performance (measured in known conditions) of several distinct prototypical shapes of the bullets we use. There is literally a 1.0 pound projectile of an established and immutable shape that defines G1 drift and drop characteristics fired at a certain velocity and set of conditions, and our bullets were traditionally rated against it, with it having the reference BC of 1.0.

This is conceptually similar to the physical, reference “kilogram” that there are maybe 20 examples of spread around the world. There is nothing special about a kilogram (or gram), all things obviously weigh more or less, but we all need to agree on what a kilogram is, so they were meticulously ground from material of exceedingly low atomic decay rate, and all of the same material as they would otherwise start diverging from each other, immediately.

The G1 projectile looks like a WWI era shape, and our boat tail bullets’ performance don’t “trail off” as rapidly s it’s performance does, so several other shapes were established attempt to cover the various form factors of bullets. Still, I haven’t seen a proper G7 BC’s reorder the bullets we use, or even alter their relative advantages to each other.

To me, the 750 Amax 50 cal is slightly over 1.0, G1, and I mentally compare everything available to it.
1.01 G1

3522A2E1-AD51-48DA-B11C-96660B8B3AE0.jpeg
 
The important number that I would be looking at is TOF (time of flight). In all of the tables listed, the variation in TOF was at the hundredths of a second. I doubt that you can detect the difference in bullet strikes with that close of TOF, especially at 1K.
Just a thought, if the sound of the bullet striking a plate at 1K is the determining factor to indicate a hit, is it possible it is a sound traveling issue? Just a thought.
 
I’d add that BC is based on the empirical performance (measured in known conditions) of several distinct prototypical shapes of the bullets we use. There is literally a 1.0 pound projectile of an established and immutable shape that defines G1 drift and drop characteristics fired at a certain velocity and set of conditions, and our bullets were traditionally rated against it, with it having the reference BC of 1.0.

This is conceptually similar to the physical, reference “kilogram” that there are maybe 20 examples of spread around the world. There is nothing special about a kilogram (or gram), all things obviously weigh more or less, but we all need to agree on what a kilogram is, so they were meticulously ground from material of exceedingly low atomic decay rate, and all of the same material as they would otherwise start diverging from each other, immediately.

The G1 projectile looks like a WWI era shape, and our boat tail bullets’ performance don’t “trail off” as rapidly s it’s performance does, so several other shapes were established to attempt to cover the various form factors of bullets made. Still, I haven’t seen a proper G7 BC reorder the bullets we use, or even alter their relative advantages to each other.

To me, the 750 Amax 50 cal is slightly over a 1.0 G1, and I mentally compare everything available to it, such that a 250 gets substantially there, with a third the weight and an .878 BC.

David:

You will get a kick out of this!!! Before the Digital age, the exterior ballistics was determined with charts, tables, and/or slide scales. I have the charts for exterior ballistics (B size drawings)!!! Unfortunately, my 1:1, C size caliber to bullet form drawings (lay a bullet in the forms and find the best fit) were destroyed by a faulty timer on the water fill solenoid on an ice maker upstairs!!! This package was from DuPont with copyright year 1936!!!! The BULLET FORM was based on flat based bullets only, with different point shapes and types (pointed, hollow point, round nose, etc). With out knowing the form, the BC factor can not be determined with this packet!!!! The charts are logarithmic and linear!!! Depends upon finding the BC using the form drawings, Remaining velocity, angle of departure, time of flight, max height of trajectory, angle of fall, wind deflection, and energy!!!!!!

Pix is front cover page!!!!!
 

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I would think the effect of wind (horizontal deflection) would have a different equation than gravity (vertical)
No, drag is drag, that's why there is only BC input in ballistic calculators.
Gravity will "pull" the bullet down at the exact same rate regardless of BC.

A lower BC bullet will slow down faster, which will cause it to hit lower on target at 1,000 yards if zeroed at 100 for example. The slower speed of the bullet will also cause bullet to drift more in the wind.
 
No, drag is drag, that's why there is only BC input in ballistic calculators.
Gravity will "pull" the bullet down at the exact same rate regardless of BC.

A lower BC bullet will slow down faster, which will cause it to hit lower on target at 1,000 yards if zeroed at 100 for example. The slower speed of the bullet will also cause bullet to drift more in the wind.

Agree to a point, ERIC!!!!

However, BC changes as velocity decreases!!! Some forms increase BC as velocity drops, while other forms decrease BC as velocity drops!!! This is the problem with some bullet manufacturers stating a BC without stating the velocity for that coefficient!!! Look in a Sierra Manual and look at the BC for their bullets (BC vs velocity ranges)!!!

BC is directly proportional to the inverse of the deceleration (negative acceleration)!!! The deceleration rate can change!!!

Bill!!!
 
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The BC does a decent job out to 1000yd or so. Ballistic model calculations are based on the ideal G1 or G7 standard, and for our bullets is a ratio of this result but can be inaccurate as this drag ratio is not consistent across velocities. This is why Applied Ballistics offers custom measured drag curves to address the lack of fit.
 
No, drag is drag, that's why there is only BC input in ballistic calculators.
Gravity will "pull" the bullet down at the exact same rate regardless of BC.

A lower BC bullet will slow down faster, which will cause it to hit lower on target at 1,000 yards if zeroed at 100 for example. The slower speed of the bullet will also cause bullet to drift more in the wind.


… It’s like looking over the side of the catamaran and a blue whale is surfacing, hello Erik :)

Yes, to expand that:

a) airless velocity would determine “potential” time to target;

b) drag is the rate velocity diminishes in air for “actual” time to target, determined by form but resisted by inertia;

c) time of flight determines the drop;

d) and wind just boils down to modifying air density/pressure, from its direction.

“A” and “D” are evident in this hypothetical:

If I fire a BB at 250 fps, with a tail wind of exactly 250 FPS, the BB never slows down; it neither passes nor is passed by a single molecule of air (there “is” air, but the bb “sees” zero air density, in its way, showing that air taken alone, doesn’t slow it down, “wind” does). Until it stops, it drops exactly as far as a BB dropped in the air from at rest.
 
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