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Head shooting deer?

Oh, and before the bowhunters start railing away at me, I'll pick on gun hunters a bit.
I was at an organized range that had sight-in shooting before the season. While I was waiting to shoot at 100 yards, I watched another shooter at the 50 yard tables. He had a 30-30 with open sights. He just kept banging away for what seemed like forever, which is what drew my attention. The range spotter kept marking his shots on a target next to him with his brass. From where I was, it looked like a buckshot pattern rather than a group; you would struggle to cover it with a full-sized paper plate!
What really blew my mind was his comment when he finally gave up - "This is good enough." I wanted the spotter to walk over there and take his rifle away, but it didn't happen. And this was an older gentleman who had hunted for years, according to his comments! Yikes! :eek::mad::(
(edit) What was even worse, his pattern was from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock on the target, not even around the center of the target.
 
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blackwidowp61 said:
Oh, and before the bowhunters start railing away at me, I'll pick on gun hunters a bit.
I was at an organized range that had sight-in shooting before the season. While I was waiting to shoot at 100 yards, I watched another shooter at the 50 yard tables. He had a 30-30 with open sights. He just kept banging away for what seemed like forever, which is what drew my attention. The range spotter kept marking his shots on a target next to him with his brass. From where I was, it looked like a buckshot pattern rather than a group; you would struggle to cover it with a full-sized paper plate!
What really blew my mind was his comment when he finally gave up - "This is good enough." I wanted the spotter to walk over there and take his rifle away, but it didn't happen. And this was an older gentleman who had hunted for years, according to his comments! Yikes! :eek::mad::(
Click to expand...
I feel bad for people regardless of the situation. Probably an out of whack superiority thing, certainly not empathy... I'd have a hard time not going over there and working with that guy. I'm sure he'd be unwelcoming to assistance but I'd try joining the struggle anyway. Feel bad for the animals in that case too, geeze. In his defence he probably uses that 30-30 like a bow in regards to hunting and takes close shots, I hope. I feel like for every 1 of him there are 5-10 of the "long range" guys who don't go to matches or the range or at least hang out on this forum and learn copious amounts of info and think they can take a 400+ yard shot without a problem.
 
Back to the bowhunters...it really scares me that bowhunters take such a blase attitude about gut-shooting a deer! I looked up how long it takes a gut-shot deer to die of sepsis and was stunned at the number of forums and websites that came up for bowhunting. I was also stunned at the number of bowhunters who said "In my experience..."! They accept it as a normal or natural result of bowhunting, and yet they continue to extend their shots ever outward, increasing the chances of a bad shot.

On the Wisconsin Bowhunter Ed Course website, I found this:
Ethical Hunting and the Risks of Long Shots
Although the average hunter has a maximum effective range of 30 yards, most bowhunters shoot game from a much closer range. They know that the chance of wounding game increases as distance increases because:
  • It becomes more difficult to hit the vital areas
  • The arrow may be deflected by unnoticed brush
  • The longer the arrow is in the air, the greater the chance the animal will move
I would add that any kind of wind will have a far greater affect on an arrow than a bullet, as most long-range rifle shooters are aware of and take into account. (Just go to a long-range rifle competition and look at all of the wind flags that are set along the sides of the range.)

(edit) found this:
The local BR shooters use flags made by one of their fellow shooters (Rick Graham of Graham Wind Flags) and will typically have 4-5 between the firing line and the 100 yard line. When shooting 300 yards they add another 3-4 to that number. The flags are also situated as close in height as possible to just below the bullet's flight.

I would put Range flags at any change in the terrain such as berms. Each range has it's own unique requirements. A range in the Plains States might only need one flag. The range I shoot on would be best served by about 5 but they would only work in the winter when the leaves are off the trees that line the side berms.

(Batter up all you bowhunters! I know I'm going to take a lot of hits for this one.)
 
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Never had to shoot 30yds with a bow because well before compounds and the legality of hunting from trees in the state of WI, we had to actually learn how to hunt. If you wanted camo, you either settled for WWII pattern or Vietnam Tiger Stripe or you made your own from painters coveralls and fabric dye. You had to sharpen your own heads. You had to play the wind because the only scent available was Pete Rickard's Indian Buck Lure. You had to conceal yourself using available ground cover, put your scent on a trail, behind something that would conceal the motion of drawing your bow and hope that there weren't too many other eyes to detect your movement. The only skin camo available was Army surplus and it took a Brillo pad to get that crap off. Most of us used burnt cork or you'd hold a china plate over a candle to make fine black soot that could be rubbed on your face. My longest kill was at 22yds, my first day in the woods with a $1.25 license in hand.

Won my share of archery tourney's over the years including the largest Bowhunting $$$ tourney in the Midwest until that time ('83). Prided myself as being the most lethal predator that I could hope to be and shot daily to keep in tone. Even using the best equipment that money could buy, I prided myself more on getting CLOSE before I ever loosed an arrow at a whitetail or bear that trying to see how far I "might" be able to harvest one. Did I have the capability of shooting further? Heck yes. To me, the challenge was seeing how close I could get and still pull it off. The love of archery and hunting allowed me to become an archery sales rep for a dozen years in one of the most hotly contested areas in the country (WI, MN, SD, ND, IA & NE).

Regarding wind and arrows. Beyond the drift factor (which is extreme), there is what is known as "weather-cocking" of an arrow. The closer to a full-value wind that you get, the weather-cocking becomes worse. The arrow still travels in the expected parabolic path from drift, but the angle of the arrow shaft is no longer straight to the direction of travel. The back end (where the guidance/stabilization occurs) swings farther away than the point because of the fletching surface area. What that does is severely impede pentration because the straighter that arrow flies, the better it will penetrate. If the arrow is flying nearly sideways when it hits...well, you get the drift.
 
blackwidowp61 said:
Back to the bowhunters...it really scares me that bowhunters take such a blase attitude about gut-shooting a deer! I looked up how long it takes a gut-shot deer to die of sepsis and was stunned at the number of forums and websites that came up for bowhunting. I was also stunned at the number of bowhunters who said "In my experience..."! They accept it as a normal or natural result of bowhunting, and yet they continue to extend their shots ever outward, increasing the chances of a bad shot.

On the Wisconsin Bowhunter Ed Course website, I found this:
Ethical Hunting and the Risks of Long Shots
Although the average hunter has a maximum effective range of 30 yards, most bowhunters shoot game from a much closer range. They know that the chance of wounding game increases as distance increases because:
  • It becomes more difficult to hit the vital areas
  • The arrow may be deflected by unnoticed brush
  • The longer the arrow is in the air, the greater the chance the animal will move
I would add that any kind of wind will have a far greater affect on an arrow than a bullet, as most long-range rifle shooters are aware of and take into account. (Just go to a long-range rifle competition and look at all of the wind flags that are set along the sides of the range.)

(edit) found this:
The local BR shooters use flags made by one of their fellow shooters (Rick Graham of Graham Wind Flags) and will typically have 4-5 between the firing line and the 100 yard line. When shooting 300 yards they add another 3-4 to that number. The flags are also situated as close in height as possible to just below the bullet's flight.

I would put Range flags at any change in the terrain such as berms. Each range has it's own unique requirements. A range in the Plains States might only need one flag. The range I shoot on would be best served by about 5 but they would only work in the winter when the leaves are off the trees that line the side berms.

(Batter up all you bowhunters! I know I'm going to take a lot of hits for this one.)
Click to expand...
Shooting at extended distances is shared by both bowhunters and firearms hunters. I hunt with longbows and recurves, and limit my shots on big game to 25 yards. On small game, i'll extend that distance to no more than 30 yards. Compound bow hunters can double those distances. You learn to stalk and close the distance, or let that animal live to see another day.
 
JimT said:
The reason this question even comes up is due to the fact that the vast majority of hunters have been taught and know a head shot on a game animal is NOT an ethical shot.

According, it’s not MY “idea of proper ethics” that fuels my denigration, it is the generally accepted body of hunting ethics most of us have abided by our entire lives. You may prefer to stay silent, but I am afraid I can’t.
Click to expand...
IMHO, I take heart/lung shots, and this is an ethic and humane shot that will put down an animal quickly. Those that debate this shot are those that learned to shoot but not properly track an animal. I know some are physically not able to, and you always hear stories of deer that don't bleed or make a trail. I have had many deer not start leaving a blood trail for hundreds of yards with a perfect lung shot, but if youhit a deer solid, it runs, usually recklessly, and leaves a trail to be found, even if it isn't blood. Kicked up leaves, freshly broken sticks and branches, and if it is shot in an open field, you can watch it run and make note of where it is heading and where to start looking. I also don't consider a head shot unethical, but not like playing sniper and taking the shot at long range. If the deer is skiddish at short range, and you can see it's head, put it down. I still feel the debate is more based on shooters rather than hunters in the field.
 
johnmventers398 said:
Whats the worldwide view on this? I do it but only when my self set rules are met.

I understand this is a hot topic and i want to get views opinions and no doubt some griefe.

I am a profecional guide and population manager and my veneson goes for comercial perposess. I will shoot arount 120 animals thisyear my self and clients willl take around 80.

So thats abit about me.
Click to expand...

Wow,
You chance ruining the horns with a head shot.

Danny
 
JRS said:
Shooting at extended distances is shared by both bowhunters and firearms hunters. I hunt with longbows and recurves, and limit my shots on big game to 25 yards. On small game, i'll extend that distance to no more than 30 yards. Compound bow hunters can double those distances. You learn to stalk and close the distance, or let that animal live to see another day.
Click to expand...
THIS,... THIS,.. THIS ^^^^ KEY WORD here,.. " Hunters" , NOT,.."shooters" ! The long Range "shooting" of, Bow or, Rifle is getting CRAZY, on the Internet ! Our,.. Deer, Elk, Antelope, Moose,..deserve,.. BETTER ! Get to KNOW your Gun/ Bow's limitations and,..PRACTICE at, "reasonable ranges" ! Learn to Track and use appropriate equipment and GOOD Bullets that,.. EXPAND and PENETRATE, to leave a Blood trail ( in case !)
 
I spent many hours/days working up a load for my buddy's 300 Win Mag. I found a load that was very accurate, but he didn't want that. He wanted a faster load instead. This didn't make sense to me, but I loaded up a bunch of rounds for him at the velocity he wanted. When he started bragging about his shooting deer at extended ranges with my rounds, I quit reloading for him. I told him that there were premium factory rounds that he could use. I wanted no part of it any more.

(edit) He is also one of those who shoots his rifle once right before the season. Doesn't take the time to really work at keeping in top form for shooting at extended distances (or any other distances for that matter). He's also a know-it-all and you can't tell him a damn thing, so now he learns how to reload or buys off the shelf.
 
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