HBN, not for me!

[yotehater]

It looks like something abrasive; dust , grit, sand, polishing compound, is scratching the necks. Like those bullets to lap the bore. I guess the lee collet is clean. Obviously something causing it.

 

[BoydAllen]

There is nothing I can see but it would be a good idea to deburr anyway. I use an RCBS VLD chamfer tool and never use any force, just a light touch. I just did a couple and looked at them under a 60X microscope. With the more forceful cut, there are little strings of metal resembling hair only much finer. Can't see them without magnification. The light cut didn't have any. I couldn't get a clear shot that close. I will start using the steel wool. Thanks.

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Neck_Chamfer

 

[JRS]

This is what I use

 

[BoydAllen]

This is what I use View attachment 1017580

Details?

 

[JRS]

Details?

It is a very fine, hard aluminum oxide stone, Boyd. I twist it between my thumb and index finger in both directions, thereby removing any leftover sharp stragglers.

 

[T-shooter]

It looks like something abrasive; dust , grit, sand, polishing compound, is scratching the necks. Like those bullets to lap the bore. I guess the lee collet is clean. Obviously something causing it.

With the polished case neck, it was spotless and clean, I finished with 2,000g sandpaper followed by some Dremmel polishing compound which was cleaned out completely afterwards. The bullet was new and cleaned. Nothing got into the neck. I coated the inside of the neck and outside of the bullet with HBN using a Q-tip. Somehow the HBN is causing the 2 surfaces to gall. Usually it's 2 metals sliding together under high pressure with inadequate lubrication. With just graphite or a bare case and bullet, you don't see any. The damage is worse just putting the HBN on as a powder, less by having the case and bullet impact coated. Using a couple extra Lapua cases that had carbon in the necks, I tried coating both with graphite and using a lighter coating in the case neck only and resized with the Lee die (the mandrel was taken out and cleaned too. In both cases, the naked bullet took less pressure to pull out. Both case and bullet coated took 11-12 lbs on the press handle and the naked bullet took only 7-8 lbs of force both times.

 

[JRS]

I hope you can determine what the problem is. I have never seen, nor heard of this happening.

 

[yotehater]

I see hbn is available in different microns sizing with the larger sizes for sandblasting media. It seems to be hygroscopic and will conglomerate making it difficult to "unstick"the particles. Might try less neck tension using it.

 

[Shane Roya]

Here is a HBN coated 143 ELDX I seated into a Lee collet sized Nosler Brass that has been shot 8 times and annealed 4 times. It took minor thumb pressure on my handle to seat it. I pulled it with a inertia type puller, I did no extra brass work for this one, did not trim or anneal this time it was done on last loading. There are 3 pictures as I rotated the bullet about 120 degrees each picture.
How are you annealing your brass ?

 

[T-shooter]

I see hbn is available in different microns sizing with the larger sizes for sandblasting media. It seems to be hygroscopic and will conglomerate making it difficult to "unstick"the particles. Might try less neck tension using it.

This is what I got. New just opened about 3 days ago. Microlubrol Hexagonal Boron Nitride Ultra Fine 0.5 µ micron powder. I run at or slightly under .002" tension. The necks are turned to .014" thickness.

 

[T-shooter]

Here is a HBN coated 143 ELDX I seated into a Lee collet sized Nosler Brass that has been shot 8 times and annealed 4 times. It took minor thumb pressure on my handle to seat it. I pulled it with a inertia type puller, I did no extra brass work for this one, did not trim or anneal this time it was done on last loading. There are 3 pictures as I rotated the bullet about 120 degrees each picture.
How are you annealing your brass ?


View attachment 1017595 View attachment 1017596 View attachment 1017597

I see some of the same kind of scaring on your bullet, the second picture. Not nearly as severe as mine. It also looks to extend slightly into the boatail. Using graphite, I only see a little scuffing, no scratches. I anneal my brass by hand but use a timer and put the heat on the shoulder. When I was learning, I used the temperature crayons and I over and under softened the brass on a bunch of old cases so I could see what it looked like and how far to go. I could feel the differences seating but really noticed it trying to pull the bullets back out. I was using this scale and putting the ball of the handle in the middle. Not precise by any means but probably could tell within 4-5 lbs. Definitely too much when I pushed with 50 lbs force and my chair was starting to slide across the floor. I don't know what the mechanical advantage the press has, probably about a 4/1 ratio. The only one easy to pull using HBN (coated bullet only) had all the carbon left in the neck. It seems like applying it by hand (not tumbled) on bare brass & bullet, and probably way too much, made the sticking problem much worse.

 

[Willie]

T, I don't think the HBN is your problem. With respect, I have never heard of anyone applying HBN to the case neck, in any form. Also, everyone I know that uses it, leaves the carbon in the neck and/or uses Imperial Dry lube to coat the neck. For some reason, your neck tension is extreme or the HBN you put in your necks is causing heavy friction, resulting in bonding the bullet.

I hope you get your process worked out, as the HBN is a positive. I believe there is an excellent thread on the Long Range Hunting forum. I started out with David Tubbs kit and have never looked back. I load and shoot a number of rifles with HBN and bullets seat smoothly and consistently. Every rifle I shoot has a ES below 10 fps. part of that is due to proper use of HBN. The true lubricity of HBN kicks in when the heat of firing glazes a fine film the length of the barrel and the coated bullets maintain that thin layer. The only time I ever had a problem was when I seated some coated bullets in new cases. These had carbon free necks and new brass with factory/tight necks and I didn't lube the necks. I pulled the few I didn't shoot and the bullets looked like yours. Remember -- carbon is your friend. Good Luck.

 

[T-shooter]

T, I don't think the HBN is your problem. With respect, I have never heard of anyone applying HBN to the case neck, in any form. Also, everyone I know that uses it, leaves the carbon in the neck and/or uses Imperial Dry lube to coat the neck. For some reason, your neck tension is extreme or the HBN you put in your necks is causing heavy friction, resulting in bonding the bullet.

I hope you get your process worked out, as the HBN is a positive. I believe there is an excellent thread on the Long Range Hunting forum. I started out with David Tubbs kit and have never looked back. I load and shoot a number of rifles with HBN and bullets seat smoothly and consistently. Every rifle I shoot has a ES below 10 fps. part of that is due to proper use of HBN. The true lubricity of HBN kicks in when the heat of firing glazes a fine film the length of the barrel and the coated bullets maintain that thin layer. The only time I ever had a problem was when I seated some coated bullets in new cases. These had carbon free necks and new brass with factory/tight necks and I didn't lube the necks. I pulled the few I didn't shoot and the bullets looked like yours. Remember -- carbon is your friend. Good Luck.

Someone had said they lubed the inside of the necks with it. I don't remember where. Also some people tumble it with heat which I haven't tried. I haven't tried the Imperial graphite dry lube in the necks with a coated bullet. The force was much lower with the one case that still had all the carbon. How do you treat new cases, just the Imperial dry lube in the necks? For some reason, just wiping it on both surfaces definitely makes them stick. I don't understand how such a fine powder can cut deep grooves into the bullet and case unless it clumps up forming larger particles. I have plenty of time so might as well experiment more. Thanks.

 

[Willie]

Glad to hear you're still open to it. Seems there is a learning curve with everything we do. Yes, the bullets benefit from pre-heating. I set them in my oven on my lowest heat of 175* for 15 min or so.

I fill my bottle (2-1/2 x 4) 2/3 full of bullets (cleaned with acetone, if not plastic tipped). Add HBN in proper quantity (depends on manufacturer formula) to heated bullets. I had to add extra powder to a clean bottle, the first time. Tape lid shut, place only one bottle at a time in vibratory tumbler. No BBs, no media in tumbler. The bullets do the impacting. As long as the bearing surface is coated, that is the only area needed. Run for two hours and check. Bullets should look frosty, not white spots. If white spots appear, place bullets in a towel wrap and slide from end to end gently until spots are gone. I wear a nose guard during this procedure. Extend time as needed to get that frosty appearance. On plastic tip bullets, tumble in UNtreated media to clean and do the towel thing to get any dust off, prior to heating. I wear rubber gloves to keep any oil off clean bullets.

You have to pretreat the barrel, with a slurry of HBN and at least 90% alcohol. 95-100% is best. Apply with bore brush or patch. I prefer to mark cleaning rod with tape and go in & out the muzzle end, BUT stop well short of chamber lugs. You don't want it in lug recesses or in chamber. The amount of suspended HBN in alcohol should look like thin milk, when shaken. Seal jar well and that slurry will outlast your barrel. I let the first pass dry and dip the borebrush in slurry a second time. The first two bullets fired should be reduced to avoid pressure. It usually takes 4-6 rounds of your regular load to get it settled.

You will often have to add a few .1 gr to get back to your bare bullet velocity and accuracy node. I know this sounds complicated at first but after the first time, you'll be a pro. It retards powder fouling, copper fouling & offers some degree of added barrel life (???). I will often shoot several hundred rounds over a couple months without any cleaning. If my accuracy falls off, I dry brush the barrel a bit and run dry patches. A few foulers and I'm back to shooting.

You also need to get all copper and powder out of barrel prior to treating. After cleaning, get all solvent and/or oil out. I use brake cleaner. Then when dry, apply slurry. A few guys have gone up to 1,000 rounds, they claim, before stripping the barrel and starting over. I usually only go 250 or so and strip to check touching the lands measurement.

In new brass, chamfer and polish, dry lube inside neck/Q-tip.
I know I'm forgetting something, but this is the longest post I've ever made. Hope it helps you and anyone else interested in HBN.

 

[Shane Roya]

Someone had said they lubed the inside of the necks with it. I don't remember where. Also some people tumble it with heat which I haven't tried. I haven't tried the Imperial graphite dry lube in the necks with a coated bullet. The force was much lower with the one case that still had all the carbon. How do you treat new cases, just the Imperial dry lube in the necks? For some reason, just wiping it on both surfaces definitely makes them stick. I don't understand how such a fine powder can cut deep grooves into the bullet and case unless it clumps up forming larger particles. I have plenty of time so might as well experiment more. Thanks.

The HBN is not scratching (or I should say gouging as it is way beyond scratches) the bullet or case neck, the gouges are from small pieces of copper and brass being pealing back as your bullet is being seated. Dry Soft copper and soft brass would tend to gall more, if the brass and copper were to be hardened you would see less gouging. Also we usually clean the bullets leaving them dry of any oil residue that may have been present from the swagging process at the factory, I would dare say if you were to clean new bullets the same way we do for HBN and then seat them you would see some of the same galling effect.

 

[kvd]

You have to pretreat the barrel, with a slurry of HBN and at least 90% alcohol. 95-100% is best. Apply with bore brush or patch.

My question is - if a slurry of HBN in 90% isopropyl alcohol used on a bore mop or patch will adequately coat the interior of a barrel then wouldn't it follow that cleaned bullets sloshed around in the same mixture and left to dry would be uniformly coated as well? Folks make slurries of resin in alcohol to coat rifle barrels before removing them so if HBN is miscible in alcohol then this would be a far more efficient way to apply this coating.

T-shooter,

Hopefully you don't plan the fire the HBN coated cases. If this stuff has the kind of lubricity people say it has, then the case would not seal against the chamber and this would not be a good thing.
Also, looking at your excellent closeups of seated and pulled bullets, I would recommend a thorough review of all the components used for neck sizing. All things being equal, it seems to me that you simply have way to much neck tension - despite what you think it might be. Check everything. If you have to put undo force on the press handle to seat and pull bullets it has to be trying to cram to big of a bullet in to small of a hole.

It is a very fine, hard aluminum oxide stone, Boyd.

Is that a dremel tool bit? Looks like it would do a really good job of cleaning up a chamfer if used by hand like you mentioned. Where can I get me one?

Ken

 

[JRS]

Because hBN in insoluble in liquids, (other than some type of acid), once the liquid has evaporated, you have nothing more than a superficial layer of powder on the component. Much the same as blood meal. hBN has to be impact plated.

Having mentioned blood meal, you'll find it to be a phenomenal coyote attractant or for any meat eater.

 

[JRS]

My question is - if a slurry of HBN in 90% isopropyl alcohol used on a bore mop or patch will adequately coat the interior of a barrel then wouldn't it follow that cleaned bullets sloshed around in the same mixture and left to dry would be uniformly coated as well? Folks make slurries of resin in alcohol to coat rifle barrels before removing them so if HBN is miscible in alcohol then this would be a far more efficient way to apply this coating.

T-shooter,

Hopefully you don't plan the fire the HBN coated cases. If this stuff has the kind of lubricity people say it has, then the case would not seal against the chamber and this would not be a good thing.
Also, looking at your excellent closeups of seated and pulled bullets, I would recommend a thorough review of all the components used for neck sizing. All things being equal, it seems to me that you simply have way to much neck tension - despite what you think it might be. Check everything. If you have to put undo force on the press handle to seat and pull bullets it has to be trying to cram to big of a bullet in to small of a hole.



Is that a dremel tool bit? Looks like it would do a really good job of cleaning up a chamfer if used by hand like you mentioned. Where can I get me one?

Ken

You can find them just about anywhere abrasives are sold. I get mine at no cost.

 

[yotehater]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I've always been a moly coater and was thinking this hbn was some kind of plastic coating. Good to hear info on bullet options and how to properly use it.

 

[T-shooter]

Glad to hear you're still open to it. Seems there is a learning curve with everything we do. Yes, the bullets benefit from pre-heating. I set them in my oven on my lowest heat of 175* for 15 min or so.

I fill my bottle (2-1/2 x 4) 2/3 full of bullets (cleaned with acetone, if not plastic tipped). Add HBN in proper quantity (depends on manufacturer formula) to heated bullets. I had to add extra powder to a clean bottle, the first time. Tape lid shut, place only one bottle at a time in vibratory tumbler. No BBs, no media in tumbler. The bullets do the impacting. As long as the bearing surface is coated, that is the only area needed. Run for two hours and check. Bullets should look frosty, not white spots. If white spots appear, place bullets in a towel wrap and slide from end to end gently until spots are gone. I wear a nose guard during this procedure. Extend time as needed to get that frosty appearance. On plastic tip bullets, tumble in UNtreated media to clean and do the towel thing to get any dust off, prior to heating. I wear rubber gloves to keep any oil off clean bullets.

You have to pretreat the barrel, with a slurry of HBN and at least 90% alcohol. 95-100% is best. Apply with bore brush or patch. I prefer to mark cleaning rod with tape and go in & out the muzzle end, BUT stop well short of chamber lugs. You don't want it in lug recesses or in chamber. The amount of suspended HBN in alcohol should look like thin milk, when shaken. Seal jar well and that slurry will outlast your barrel. I let the first pass dry and dip the borebrush in slurry a second time. The first two bullets fired should be reduced to avoid pressure. It usually takes 4-6 rounds of your regular load to get it settled.

You will often have to add a few .1 gr to get back to your bare bullet velocity and accuracy node. I know this sounds complicated at first but after the first time, you'll be a pro. It retards powder fouling, copper fouling & offers some degree of added barrel life (???). I will often shoot several hundred rounds over a couple months without any cleaning. If my accuracy falls off, I dry brush the barrel a bit and run dry patches. A few foulers and I'm back to shooting.

You also need to get all copper and powder out of barrel prior to treating. After cleaning, get all solvent and/or oil out. I use brake cleaner. Then when dry, apply slurry. A few guys have gone up to 1,000 rounds, they claim, before stripping the barrel and starting over. I usually only go 250 or so and strip to check touching the lands measurement.

In new brass, chamfer and polish, dry lube inside neck/Q-tip.
I know I'm forgetting something, but this is the longest post I've ever made. Hope it helps you and anyone else interested in HBN.

Thanks again. That's the most detailed instructions I've seen anywhere. For this many people to use it, it has to work but it's evidently all in the method. It can't be applied like the graphite powder. I may experiment with a pistol. Much less expensive and easier to monitor the condition of a 4" non-fixed barrel, and if anything goes wrong, it doesn't have to be accurate anyway. I have plenty of new 9mm cases and bullets and will load them closer to a minimum charge just incase.