HBN, not for me!

[T-shooter]

Did you rinse the raw bullets with IPA or acetone and allow them to dry before putting them in the tumbler with the HBN? Here's a link and there are some YouTube videos to walk you through the process. It seems that not everyone uses the same or any directions. Here's the link to the accurate shooter discussion. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/08/boron-nitride-source-and-application-procedures/

Good luck with it and it's definitely worth a try in my experience. WD

They were cleaned with alcohol and dry.

 

[T-shooter]

That is a lot of scratches on those bullets. I might have missed it but when you say they were sized did they get to see an expander ball or bushing. I don't use a scale when seating bullets but it can't be that much.

I use a Forster BR die with an expander ball. It is glass smooth. The die is honed to reduce the neck .004" under and the ball expands it back out to .002" under finished size. I'm going to redo the test tomorrow with well used cases.

 

[dmoran]

@T-shooter
Like others, have to wonder what is the cause to the bullet scratching:
- Do you polish your chamfer after using your VLD cutter?
- Do you brush the inside case necks between firings?
- What is your case cleaning process between cycles?
The more details of your steps and process' would be good to hear.
Donovan

 

[T-shooter]

To JRS

I found a person with a similar problem that was posted in 2012 and saw your name in the post.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hbn-increasing-neck-tension.3792583/page-2

 

[JRS]

To JRS

I found a person with a similar problem that was posted in 2012 and saw your name in the post.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hbn-increasing-neck-tension.3792583/page-2

If the bullets have been properly plated, you are going to witness a loss in velocity. Don't bother with the so-called slurry treatment I have found other uses for it during the past 10 years

 

[Shane Roya]

Before I annealed my brass I had some that seated hard, I use a Lee Collet die for neck sizing. I clean bullets, dry them, vibrate them for a couple hours in a container with steel bbs and HBN inside a Frankford Arsenal vibratory tumbler, then put them in a container with wood shavings and vibrate for about 15 minutes. Seems to work bullets with HBN are 30-50 fps slower depending on bullet and load, requiring more powder to bring back up to node.
It was actually the hard seating that made me realize how bad I needed annealing on my case necks. My coated 147 ELDM bullets in my 6.5 Creedmoor 26" X-Cal barrel, with 48 grains RL26, BR2 primers, Nosler Brass 52.7 H2O gives me 2930 fps with SD averaged on 15 rounds of 3.8 fps and 5 shots at 100 yards between .300 and .500 inches CTC. I have 800 rounds down my tube and I am on my 9th loading with brass no issues. I can feel no dip in the brass with a steel wire i sharpened and bent the end on, but after 10 I will cut a couple brass and give it a visual inspection.
I like HBN but some don't, one guy says it made no difference for him in velocity, but for me it sure does. My results were established after a couple hundred rounds of uncoated bullets 130 ELDM and 143 ELDX and then testing same bullets with coated.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[sdean]

You should also seat a few naked bullets when you do your test as a control next time.

 

[Uthink Uknow]

While your tests have brought out discussion of neck problems, you haven't addressed the purpose for using HbN in the first place. At least not why I use it. I'm coating my bullets to serve as a way to reduce bullet to barrel friction when fired.
Oh, and I vibrate acetone cleaned bullets in a vibratory tumbler for only 30 minutes and they come out frosted white.

 

[Shane Roya]

I use HBN to gain a lower shot to shot SD, reduce barrel wear (not sure that has been proven yet) as well as first cold barrel shot group better with follow up shots, seems worth the extra effort. Oh and also it is not as messy as Moly from what IO hear.
Thanks for the info, I will have to try shortening my time in vibrator and see if velocities remain the same, that will tell me if it is enough time. I have 200 147s coming in I will pull out 10 at 30 minutes and 10 at 1 hr. the rest for 2 hrs. If it is all the same with same load I will not waste the extra time in the vibrator.
But again before annealing I did experience harder seating as well and that was the OPs question as to anyone else having same problem, and how might he remedy it.

 

[Willie]

I suppose each individual can shoot coated or bare bullets, depending on their needs. I have been using HBN on 4-5 rifles for the last 4 years and have found no downside to it, when applied correctly and consistently. It is an extra step, but I seem to always be adding an extra step.

I clean in acetone, dry in clean towel, heat in oven, fill 2/3 of bottle with bullets, add HBN, tumble in vibratory 3-4 hrs depending on caliber. I use no BBs, as bullet to bullet impact does the plating. Clean residue gently in towel, label & store in Ziploc.

All bullets are presorted BTO and with Bob Green tool. Brass gets total prep and chamfer is polished. SD & ES are scary low. Seating is very consistent. What's not to like? These are long range hunting rifles and consistent accuracy is as important to me as the competition shooter.

Use a coating or not, but if you do, do it correctly and consistently.
Use 95% alcohol to make slurry treatment for barrel seasoning.
Everyone has a method, this one works for me.

 

[Willie]

You should also seat a few naked bullets when you do your test as a control next time.

Once your barrel is seasoned with HBN slurry & fired coated bullets, the bare bullets would not shoot the same as bare bullets in a HBN free barrel, unless you shoot enough bare bullets to remove all HBN from the barrel. Your control must be established prior to using the HBN.

 

[T-shooter]

Another test, same results. Here are the cases. All except #1 are completely cleaned of carbon and cleaned with alcohol before tumbling and seating. All bullets are new and alcohol cleaned.
#1 is a Lapua and uncleaned (carbon coated) after firing
#2 is a Hornady polished inside the neck
#3 is a Lapua that was tumbled & coated with the bullets for over 4 hours
#4 was not used, showing the damage inside the neck. This was a new Hornady case and was annealed
#5 is a completely cleaned Lapua
#6 is an older Hornady completely cleaned

And the bullets after seating and pulling out. The number corresponds to the case they came out of.

#1 was HBN tumble coated and seated in the case than had all the carbon remaining. Only took 11 lbs force on the press handle. All of these cases were resized with a Lee collet die so as to not remove the carbon and make the neck's equal.
#2 Polished case neck inside. HBN wiped onto the bullet and inside of the case neck. 50 lbs pressure wouldn't budge it and it had the most damage on the surface.
#3 This case and bullet were tumbled coated and the loose excess wiped off before seating. 42 lbs force needed to break it loose.
#5 Lapua case that was coated with Imperial Graphite in the case neck and on the bullet surface. 15 lbs force needed to pull it out.
#6 Hornady case with HBN wiped onto the bullet and inside the neck. Took 47 lbs force to pull it.

The only time HBN reduced the neck friction was with a carboned up neck and still left some light scratches in the bullet. At this point I give up. It only worked in one instance. I'll stick with the graphite, at least it is predictable. If it caused galling like this in a brass case, what could it do in a barrel even though it's steel? I don't want to find out!

 

[JRS]

What exactly are you doing and using during your tumbling process? The case mouths look rough.

 

[johnmyers]

I suppose each individual can shoot coated or bare bullets, depending on their needs. I have been using HBN on 4-5 rifles for the last 4 years and have found no downside to it, when applied correctly and consistently. It is an extra step, but I seem to always be adding an extra step.

I clean in acetone, dry in clean towel, heat in oven, fill 2/3 of bottle with bullets, add HBN, tumble in vibratory 3-4 hrs depending on caliber. I use no BBs, as bullet to bullet impact does the plating. Clean residue gently in towel, label & store in Ziploc.

All bullets are presorted BTO and with Bob Green tool. Brass gets total prep and chamfer is polished. SD & ES are scary low. Seating is very consistent. What's not to like? These are long range hunting rifles and consistent accuracy is as important to me as the competition shooter.

Use a coating or not, but if you do, do it correctly and consistently.
Use 95% alcohol to make slurry treatment for barrel seasoning.
Everyone has a method, this one works for me.

Just like this and it works

 

[BoydAllen]

There is something going on that many miss and which has not been given much attention on the internet. When you chamfer a case neck, if you push with much force at all, a ridge will be pushed up at the bottom of the chamfer. You can deal with this in a couple of ways. On Varmint Al's site I believe that he show a tool that he has made so that a wad of 0000 steel wool is contained within a half inch copper pipe cap that has been mounted on a shaft suitable for chucking in a drill. He uses this to smooth up case mouths after trimming and chamfering, pushing the case against the steel wool with enough force that it smooths the full chamfer. For my turned 6ppc cases I use another method, that I came up with years back. I scrape out the burr with the tip of a knife blade that I grasp so that only a half inch or so extends past my closed fist. One of these days I will have to take a picture or video of this. It works very well. You can feel the roughness and when it is gone. If you use a very light touch when chamfering the burr will not be formed. I use a Lyman tool that seems to be fairly sharp and has a wood handle. Another tool that was designed to solve this problem is sold on the K&M site. IMO it should be adjusted to do almost no cutting and used after regular chamfering.

 

[T-shooter]

What exactly are you doing and using during your tumbling process? The case mouths look rough.

I don't think that is from tumbling. Could be some pitting from being fired. The worst in the picture are the 3 old Lapua cases that may have been fired several times without the length being trimmed. I've noticed it before but never really paid much attention. Usually the last step in case prep is to run the chamfer tool in and use the lightest of pressure to be sure there isn't any roughness there. I used steel plated BB's in a plastic bottle with 90% of the media removed from the tumbler. The bottle rotated about once every 4 seconds and laid flat on it's side.

 

[JRS]

I don't think that is from tumbling. Could be some pitting from being fired. The worst in the picture are the 3 old Lapua cases that may have been fired several times without the length being trimmed. I've noticed it before but never really paid much attention. Usually the last step in case prep is to run the chamfer tool in and use the lightest of pressure to be sure there isn't any roughness there. I used steel plated BB's in a plastic bottle with 90% of the media removed from the tumbler. The bottle rotated about once every 4 seconds and laid flat on it's side.

When I referenced the tumbling, I meant the bullets, not the cases. What kind of ratio of BBs to bullets are you using, and how much of the hBN are you using in the bottle?

 

[T-shooter]

There is something going on that many miss and which has not been given much attention on the internet. When you chamfer a case neck, if you push with much force at all, a ridge will be pushed up at the bottom of the chamfer. You can deal with this in a couple of ways. On Varmint Al's site I believe that he show a tool that he has made so that a wad of 0000 steel wool is contained within a half inch copper pipe cap that has been mounted on a shaft suitable for chucking in a drill. He uses this to smooth up case mouths after trimming and chamfering, pushing the case against the steel wool with enough force that it smooths the full chamfer. For my turned 6ppc cases I use another method, that I came up with years back. I scrape out the burr with the tip of a knife blade that I grasp so that only a half inch or so extends past my closed fist. One of these days I will have to take a picture or video of this. It works very well. You can feel the roughness and when it is gone. If you use a very light touch when chamfering the burr will not be formed. I use a Lyman tool that seems to be fairly sharp and has a wood handle. Another tool that was designed to solve this problem is sold on the K&M site. IMO it should be adjusted to do almost no cutting and used after regular chamfering.

There is nothing I can see but it would be a good idea to deburr anyway. I use an RCBS VLD chamfer tool and never use any force, just a light touch. I just did a couple and looked at them under a 60X microscope. With the more forceful cut, there are little strings of metal resembling hair only much finer. Can't see them without magnification. The light cut didn't have any. I couldn't get a clear shot that close. I will start using the steel wool. Thanks.

 

[T-shooter]

When I referenced the tumbling, I meant the bullets, not the cases. What kind of ratio of BBs to bullets are you using, and how much of the hBN are you using in the bottle?

I'm sure it's wrong. I just put in probably 100 bb's and and 6 cc's of HBN. I tumbeled about 25 200 grain bullets and then just put the others in as is figuring it probably had enough powder. The last time was only 2 bullets and a case run 4+ hours. The bottle is about 2-3/4" by 4-1/8".

 

[JRS]

I'm sure it's wrong. I just put in probably 100 bb's and and 6 cc's of HBN. I tumbeled about 25 200 grain bullets and then just put the others in as is figuring it probably had enough powder. The last time was only 2 bullets and a case run 4+ hours. The bottle is about 2-3/4" by 4-1/8".

Use more of the BBs, and each time you add bullets, you also have to add the boron. I use empty 40 ounce peanut butter jars. 2 jars are a snug fit, side by side in my Thumler's tumbler. 60% media and 40% bullets. I measure my boron by using a sample stick from Baskin Robbins ice-cream