Have you had any experience with "cold welding" of bullets in case necks?

[BoydAllen]

This topic came up in another thread. I would like others' input on their experiences with this. If you respond, please give details. How clean were the case necks? What powder? Neck tension? How long was the ammo stored? Where was it loaded, and what were the conditions of its storage? Thanks
Boyd

 

[bozo699]

This topic came up in another thread. I would like others' input on their experiences with this. If you respond, please give details. How clean were the case necks? What powder? Neck tension? How long was the ammo stored? Where was it loaded, and what were the conditions of its storage? Thanks
Boyd

Boyd,
I have had some, very little but some experience with this, I have a few things to talk to you about anyway so rather then writing it all out lets talk this evening, after dark would work best for me I have to work the cattle today if it stops raining.
Wayne.

 

[johara1]

Boyd, I never had it, or seen anything like what you are asking about.I polish the case necks once after fire forming, after that i use a nylon brush rapped with steel wool to polish the very edge of the case mouth. I do take all lube off the inside neck when fire forming with brake cleaner,still no issues. I now use RL-15 for the Dasher and the 6.5x47 both i use .001 neck tension and cci 450's Powders i tried in both are RI-17 and H4350,H4895 and VV550. I used Varget but the problems with it are well known but no issues you ask of. With the ppc's 8208 and n133 no problems,8208 was windshield washer jugs. Everything is in the basement, The old 4831 came in paper bags for 50 cents a pound. so i go back so far in reloading and never saw anything like a welding of the bullet to the neck........... jim

 

[bozo699]

Jim,
Not to insult you intelligence and you are IMHO what I believe Boyd is talking about is when you say seat your bullets long and maybe some time passes and you go to a match and then go to seat them to the desired depth needed and you have a lot of resistance then a pop and the bullet moves easy then or at least I think that is what he meant and I have seen this, it happened to me at the final shoot last year, .001 neck tension, moly bullets, 6brx, Varget, 205 match primers, Lapua brass with the necks brushe good prior to seating, when seated long they went in like butter but when I went to do a final seat at the match they seated hard,...made a hard pop then seated easy once they broke loose.
Wayne.

 

[wapiti25]

I have had ammo loaded and stored for about a year that had the "bullet welding". This was in the mid eighties I was shooting the NRA National Match course firing 30-06 reloads using fired military brass. Storage was in the garage which was cold (freezing) in the winter and hot (100+) during the summer. When the ammo was broken down to salvage the componets the bullets were being pulled with a collet type puller. Some had to be bumped deeper to break the "bond" and a "pop" could be heard. The brass had been fired more than once, not cleaned or annealed. Brass was FL sized in RCBS dies.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have read that using moly coated bullets can cause cold welding to happen faster than with uncoated bullets. Wayne, are you coating your own bullets? Are you using wax, like the original NECO process. Tod Kindler has a bullet coating that is wax based and easy to apply. Perhaps a test on a sample of your molied bullets? It is supposed to reduce fouling and increase barrel life.

 

[lpreddick]

i learned about this on 6mmbr AFTER having it happen to me. i had POLISHED the neck insides with flitz on a patch spinning in a drill. i polished the bullets with flitz also. boy, did they seat smoothly! shot them a week later and velocities were all over the place and groups were also went home and pulled some to measure powder...all were as loaded. read here about this phenomenon and did seat one a bit deeper and heard and felt the "pop"! as has been mentioned, a little bit of residue in the neck seems to prevent this. when loading new brass i will dip bullets in the dry neck lube sold by sinclair since it seems to be of graphite consistency and dirtiness. also noted "cold welded" bullet are a bear to "pull" with a hammer type bullet puller. i wonder if the ultrasonic cleaners are having any problems?

 

[jlow]

Just wondering what the actual definition and proof that there is “cold welding”? Is it just this resistance to pulling and that “pop”?

 

[bozo699]

Just wondering what the actual definition and proof that there is “cold welding”? Is it just this resistance to pulling and that “pop”?

jlow,
I believe the pop sound is the wilson die top slamming into the body, when seating normally it is a smooth operation and no noise but when "welded" and it finally breaks loose the inertia slams the two parts of the die closed, I hope that makes some sense.
Wayne.

 

[jb]

when i can not pull a bullet with a collet puller tightened enough to deform the bullet, but it pulls normally after seating .010 deeper (with a pop) this is welding . i have had this happen many times. each fall with my hunting ammo i seat .010 deeper then pull part way then reseat to correct spec. i have had group size more than double from welding. a cure would be much help.

 

[jlow]

It does but with all due respect it is not completely convincing. For example, I would assume that cold welding tends to happen in cases that have very clean necks mated to very clean bullets and it happens over time.

So the natural questions would be has anyone compared the degree of effort to pull a number of rounds off cases with necks that are carbon coated with those that are very clean? The other question would be can one show a time-dependent increase in effort and “popiness” of only the clean neck rounds over time to show in fact there is a difference between say rounds that are pulled minutes after seating to those months or years later?

Without these controls, seems like it the results are subjective in nature and it would be difficult if not impossible to attribute the efforts to the existence or absence of cold welding.

 

[johara1]

I guess i'm stupid but shot stuff i loaded so long ago i can't remember when i loaded it. The loads that are 2 years old for the 47 still shot good. I have and shot 1903 30-06 with no problem. What i think it is loader induced problem. In 50+ years i never heard of it, so somebody screw up to make it happen. The gov. sealed them in there......jim

 

[johara1]

I guess i'm not doing anything wrong because it has never happened to me or any one i shoot with. I guess your right i can't understand how it can happen.....jim

 

[jo191145]

when i can not pull a bullet with a collet puller tightened enough to deform the bullet, but it pulls normally after seating .010 deeper (with a pop) this is welding . i have had this happen many times. each fall with my hunting ammo i seat .010 deeper then pull part way then reseat to correct spec. i have had group size more than double from welding. a cure would be much help.

I agree with your definition 100%
Try using Imperial dry graphite as a interior neck lube on your hunting ammo. Do not clean it out before loading.
No quarentee that will work but if it does'nt there is no cure

Lots of interesting opionions being bandied about here.
My opinion? Its easy to tell who owns a bullet puller and who does'nt ;D
Excuse the sarcasm, thats just me being me.

Now when will we get around to the discussion of heavily compressed Hodgen Extreme loads being pulled and you find your powder has turned to a congealed gooey mess within days of loading?


PS I get the pop using conventional dies also. I also never clean my neck id's anymore unless theres visible corrosion from sittin too long. Its a real pop not dependent on dies used.

A friend of a friend gave me a whole bunch of reloaded 30-06 ammo a few years ago. Thought he was doing me a huge favor. It was all green. I took them to spare his feelings and assure myself noone else would try to fire this stuff. Not even a collet puller will pull these babies. Haven't had the time to seat deaper and pull.
Perhaps quite not the same as cold welding but they're definately welded.

 

[jlow]

I own a Hornady cam-lock bullet puller for many years and have pulled hundreds of rounds but never have resorted to the die push with a pop except for the few factory ammo that I have pulled with the tar neck seal – maybe I am lucky or stupid like johara1? 8)

 

[jo191145]

I own a Hornady cam-lock bullet puller for many years and have pulled hundreds of rounds but never have resorted to the die push with a pop except for the few factory ammo that I have pulled with the tar neck seal – maybe I am lucky or stupid like johara1? 8)

You should'nt need to seat deeper to pull except in extreme cases like mine.
The pop referred too is from shooters who know with time a "grip" on the bullet will change.
Some folks who reload knowing they're ammo will need to sit load long and seat to preferred depth right before using.
Personally my ammo never sees more than a night of peace before firing.

 

[BoydAllen]

Wayne,
The pop that I am talking about is not the Wilson seater. I first ran across this with press dies, and nothing was slamming into anything.

The point as to whether it really cold welding is a good one. Heck, I don't have a metallurgy lab and budget, but that is what it is commonly called. The subject has seen print before. I didn't make up the use of the term to describe the phenomenon.

As to the work on the subject being non scientific and anecdotal in nature, you are absolutely right. Most of what we know in life has not been the result of scientific experiment.

As far as someone believing or not, I put this thread to solicit responses from those who have some experience with this happening. With that group there is no belief issue. I put the term in quotes to give some wiggle room about what is actually happening. Because I generally don't load very far ahead, I don't commonly have this problem, but I have seen it, more than once.

 

[jlow]

Jo191145 – Actually like I said I have had to pop a few but those were factory ammo – Winchester 7.62x51 AKA M81 ball. The stuff was seal in with what believe to be tar or something and that seater gave that pop and the bullet came out with the puller but not before. I am with you when you say "my ammo never sees more than a night of peace before firing"!!

BoydAllen – No problem here believing that cold weld of rounds do exist. It is well documented as you mentioned. Just wondering which of the input you are getting/will get are true cold welds – it was just a question out of curiosity coming out of the scientific community where I used to work before retirement.

I would tend to agree with jo191145 that jb’s description sounds about right. I also agree that “most of what we know in life has not been the result of scientific experiment”, which is why I frequently refer to some of what I do in reloading as “Voodoo” – LOL! It does not make the scientist in my happy but I can accept it!

 

[BoydAllen]

Round about the couldron go:
In the poisones entrails throw.
Toad,that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one
Sweated venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first in the charmed pot.
Double,double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blindworm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing.
For charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
Double,double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and couldron bubble.

Scale of dragon,tooth of wolf,
Witch's mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd in the dark,
Liver of blaspheming Jew;
Gall of goat; andslips of yew
silver'd in the moon's eclipse;
Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips;
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by the drab,-
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For ingrediants of our cauldron.
Double,double toil and trouble,
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Wm. Shakespeare - from Macbeth

 

[jlow]

If I can get tighter groups, small ES and SDEV, sign me up! ;D