Handgun Chambering Choices -- Serious Qs

[Pawnee Bill]

If you carry a 45 ACP you should fear no human.

 

[DGP4]

If you carry a 45 ACP you should fear no human.

As long as you know how to shoot it, both aiming and follow up shots. As others have said, a .22 would be more effective in the hands of a well trained individual over someone with a big gun that rarely shoots it. I see a lot of people at the range every week with good PD guns that have trouble hitting the target at 7 yards. Just pulling out a gun may get you to safety in 80% of all bad situations, but prepare for the other 20%!

 

[CJ6]

As long as you know how to shoot it, both aiming and follow up shots. As others have said, a .22 would be more effective in the hands of a well trained individual over someone with a big gun that rarely shoots it. I see a lot of people at the range every week with good PD guns that have trouble hitting the target at 7 yards. Just pulling out a gun may get you to safety in 80% of all bad situations, but prepare for the other 20%!

I'm not pulling to "threaten". I'm pulling to protect mine or a loved ones life. It will be used.

 

[AccelR8]

"What do you think about cartridge choice?"

I think there are many valid choices.

I think the most important thing is a round that can be relied upon to penetrate deeply enough to damage vital organs like the heart and related major plumbing, and the central nervous system, the brain and spinal cord.

I think secondarily, expansion is important for two reasons; one, preventing over penetration which could conceivably be a liability, and two, an expanded bullet with a flat frontal area (as opposed to a round nose) has a much better chance of creating disruption to anything it contacts, rather than just tunneling trough.

I believe the energy level of the round is not so important as long as it carries enough energy in terms of momentum to penetrate enough. For handgun cartridges it seems that among those who study such things the belief is that excessive energy, that is more than required to achieve sufficient penetration, is lost, absorbed by temporary stretch and does not translate to real damage on target. Rifle cartridges are a different story. It is my opinion that a round must achieve at least 400 ft. lbs. muzzle energy in order to work reliably in most conceivable scenarios. 800 ft. lbs. may be more than you need. 200 may be sufficient in some/many circumstances but why limit yourself?

If you look at the energy levels of common self defense chamberings, they're all similar. For example a 115 or 124 grain 9mm is roughly equal to a 230 grain 45 ACP at least in terms of foot-pounds energy. Of course the .45 is larger in diameter and this may be an edge in some circumstances, but then we think of bullet expansion and modern bullet design. That discussion is no doubt familiar to everyone here. No sense in rehashing it. But it might be fair to say if we can make a 9mm expand, we can make .45 expand too!

But other considerations come into it. My wife and I both shoot a lot of ammo. We choose 9mm because A. it's one of the most effective defense rounds and B. it's the most affordable option in terms of the volume we shoot. I believe you should train like you (might have to) fight. I personally carry Hornady 135 grain +P Critical Duty. It has the best combination of energy, expansion, and penetration that I'm looking for at least going by all the testing available on the internet (yeah I know but that's all we realistically have to go by). Probably these reasons are why law enforcement has abandonded the .40S&W and gone to the 9MM.

Spare rounds aside, I can carry a six shot 357, a seven shot 45 or a 15 shot 9mm. To me, more rounds are always better. On one hand, each bullet you launch is a potential liability so you don't want to spray and pray. On the other hand, just 'cause you have 15 or 18 shots doesn't mean you have to use them all but it's good to have them if you need them. I can conceal a full size 1911 or a Beretta 92 no problem and I'm about 5'10" and 170 lbs. I don't need to carry a tiny gun and in fact a small gun is much harder to manipulate, for me anyway. In my experience those people who carry very small guns rarely, if ever, practice with them.

I see the 10MM recommended a lot for bear defense. I think that recommendation is unwise. If one is going to get a gun specifically for bear defense, there are better options. 44 Mag, 454 casull, 500 S&W among them. I would consider 44 Mag, loaded appropriately, to be the minimum but any of those I listed would honestly leave me feeling under-gunned. I carry a 44 Mag and I always carry bear spray. I would go to that first, I'd have a much better chance with that. Of course a "big" rifle would be my ultimate choice.

 

[DGP4]

I'm not pulling to "threaten". I'm pulling to protect mine or a loved ones life. It will be used.

I agree that when you pull you have to be ready to fire, BUT my point is that a pulled gun may defuse a situation before it has to be fired in many situations. In any event, my main point was practice practice practice with whatever you carry!

 

[big5ifty]

What is all the hoopla about the 10MM ...

I chose the 10mm because it's the power factor equivalent of a 357 Mag, and makes a bigger hole. 200 grain XTP @ 1100 is enough gun for me.

I carried a .357M for a few decades, and I consider the 10mm semi-auto to be a functional upgrade. I also did not want to downgrade on the stopping power. One extra mag and I've got the equivalent of six in the chamber and four speedloaders. In a lot more streamlined fashion.

The G21 handles like a sponge compared to my Security Six, but that's the trade-off.

 

[David Milisock]

I carry a 9mm. Why, because I'm good with it, can hit with it, and I'm very confident with it.

For some reason I completely suck at shooting larger calibers, ie. 45acp, 10mm, 40, ect.

For me, it's about being confident in my gun and my abilities to perform with it.

Confidence for me is a huge factor. Even more so than the caliber

I get it! Thanks!

 

[David Milisock]

I am not self-defense expert or even enthusiast and I have never been in law enforcement however I have read a number of articles written by experts on the subject as a history buff.

If my memory is correct, the 40 S&W cartridge and pistol was developed in response to the FBI's need for a cartridge with greater stopping power and more sustained fire capability stemming from a gunfight in Florida where their service revolvers failed to perform. Why they didn't adopt the proven 45 ACP I can't remember but it would seem to me that would have been an easier and effective solution. The 10mm was never seriously consider due to the recoil.

Major G. C. Nonte, Jr. did extensive research on gunfights and published the results in his book entitled "Revolver Guide". While the book is focused on revolvers, it nevertheless discusses the salient points of gunfighting. His conclusion was that it was the willingness to use lethal force without hesitation that was the deciding factor in gunfights with the caveat that each participate was armed with an adequate and functioning weapon.

Another article I read some time ago written by a British Army Officer who trained commando's during WWII stated that in a close combat lethal confrontation, one will never see the sights on a pistol because of what he termed the "tactical psyche" affect where in the total focus will be on the threat in front of one. Thus, he was an advocate of training the "instinctive" shooting technique for close combat with a pistol. I think the FBI now teaches this too, but I am not sure.

I've read a host of other articles that also reflect the aforementioned concepts. So, to answer your question based on what I've read, it's kind all these factors. In other words, an adequate caliber with sufficient stopping power, the critical tactical training and skill and the willingness to use lethal force that are the deciding factors.

In my opinion, one's decision to carry a firearm for self-defense is a serious decision. It would be wise to obtain the best training possible with a complete understanding of the laws governing the use of lethal force.

I agree the decision to carry and what to carry is serious.

I've never been in law enforcement but my experience is more akin to Major Nonte, being armed with a reliable firearm, being willing are important. I'll add to that situational awareness and the ability to utilize defensive and offensive tactics to defend yourself, your family or team. Of course in civilian terms within the limits of the law.

In terms of firearm 380 ACP or 10MM is only relevant in the situation where 100% concealment is most certainly the significant advantage. (An assailant in a stressful situation has difficulty defending against a threat they don't know about) Of course in bear country the situation reverses.

In terms of effectiveness I don't understand the BS on cartridge, an assault on me or mine by a person with 380 or a 40S&W will be definitely assigned as a 100% threat. In the future if I must defend me or mine I hope it's only against someone stupid enough to assume the little handgun make me an easy mark.

 

[David Milisock]

It depends on what you will carry, not what you might carry. I have carried a 45 ACP for years in a 1911. However, I live in a hot humid area where clothing is thin and light weight, I carry a custom 380 Keltec with Corbon 90s, with an extended grip magazine. I can carry it fully concealed and walk right up to you, in a very unthreading manner.
The 40 is an FBI attempt to detune the 10mm, so that is like having a muscle car with a 4 banger in it. The 10mm is a better choice, if and only if you can shoot it. Concealed, not so much in a hot and humid summer situation.

Not being able to 100% conceal in many cases is a much more significant disadvantage then a 10mm or any larger handgun would be any advantage.

 

[David Milisock]

You need both, and if like you say the perp is wearing body armor, maybe a little luck besides.

And tactics, in my opinion that's where trying is lacking.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I really like the 40s&w, it’s been available when other’s weren’t and it downloads well like 45acp.
Is it a advantage over 9mm?
Not anymore.
I have no interest in 10mm but a 10mm carbine sounds fun and probably a good house gun.

 

[David Milisock]

Close...
The 10mm was developed as the result of that shootout. Then when the recoil was too much for many agents, a 10mm Lite load was created at the request of the agency. Then an equivalent cartridge was created using a shortened 10mm case so it would fit in a 9mm size frame, resulting in the .40 S&W - sometimes affectionately called the "Short and Weak."
Yes, all that to basically return to .45 ACP ballistics!

In my opinion any person shooting at me with a 40S&W is treated the same as if they were using a Canon.
I do agree returning to what worked in the past.

 

[GuitarmanNick]

I carry either 9mm or 9x18 Makarov pistols. Both rounds are stout enough for encounters involving other humans. If I am going to be walking in bear country(can't see that this will ever happen, but...), 7.62x25mm Tokarev should be enough at 1600 FPS.

 

[David Milisock]

Dave -
still
Howdy !

There has been assembled in the past, a report on handgun cartridge " effectiveness "for one shot " stops " on humans. This came largely from law enforcement experiences.

What has been shown is: those cartridges that have exhibited the highest
" effectiveness " at stopping humans are those that can deliver around 420+ ft lbs of energy to the target. This includes things like the classic .45ACP " ball " round as one example, some .38 Super loads, multiple .40 S & W loads; and the .357Mag in a variety of
bullet weights. The latter has/had the top rating, when shooting Remington or Federal 125JHPs. The .357Mag still works well today ( more on the civilian side ), albeit it has fallen from favor for large scale law enforcement use; being supplanted by the .40 S & W .
The .357Mag presented it's own challenges for shooters to master, and another approach was suggested....

The .40 S & W generates useful energy levels while keeping recoil forces comparatively lower than the .357Mag, by striking a balance w/ calibre.... bullet wt.... and deliverable energy. The .40 S & W is in simple terms.... an updated version of the " .38-40 " from olde.
There's no goofy rim, and cartridge " load out " numbers exceed that of common 6-shot revolvers. Joe Average found the .40 S & W easier to shoot (than a .357Mag for example), and the number of cartridges that could be kept @ the ready in a magazine(s) held some appeal.

I carry a 4" "N"-frame .357Mag, and have done so for decades, after first carrying a 6"
M-28 and later a 5" barrelled .357Mag for self defense. I want to carry a .357Mag, and have chosen the 125JHP factory load. This combo generates some 525ft lb of M.E.

*** I am not suggesting to anybody, that they carry a .357Mag . My custom 4" "N" suits my needs, and.... I make it a point to " dress " so that I can successfully carry it concealed. *** You'll make your own informed choices.

IMHO - things like +P loads were an attempt to bring lower-powered cartridges closer to the 420ft lb energy level threshold ( I. E. give them greater " stopping power " ); otherwise they would not have gone to the trouble and expense to manufacture them.


With regards,
357Mag

I understand minimum power standards, (I carry a 9x18 Makarov because it's 100% reliable and cost me $85 many moons ago ) however be it a 380 or what ever, you're not unarmed.

In most home defense situations my biggest concern would be over penetration with all my handguns as well as my 30 Carbine.

 

[David Milisock]

Like most things in life, it is not the tool but how it is used. One and done is my motto I carry both 9mm and 40 S&W for the 2 legged. When in bear country it is my .500 S&W.

I've heard good things about the 500, but I've had my 44 magnum for well over 30 years and to replace it I'd need a mortgage.

 

[David Milisock]

I like the FAQ from Seecamp:

FAQs - Seecamp Firearms

Seecamp Firearms FAQ page is designed to answer any questions or concerns you may have regarding your Seecamp Firearm or accessories.

seecamp.com

Why are there no sights on my Seecamp?​

TLDR: Because they are pointless on a self-defense concealed carry gun.

Is 32ACP enough? Enough for what?

The best concealed carry gun, is the one you carry with you, not the "superior" one you leave at home.

BINGO!!!

 

[David Milisock]

If you carry a 45 ACP you should fear no human.

As long as you're smart enough, have guts enough and good enough to use it properly.

Stay off the armor.

 

[David Milisock]

As long as you know how to shoot it, both aiming and follow up shots. As others have said, a .22 would be more effective in the hands of a well trained individual over someone with a big gun that rarely shoots it. I see a lot of people at the range every week with good PD guns that have trouble hitting the target at 7 yards. Just pulling out a gun may get you to safety in 80% of all bad situations, but prepare for the other 20%!

I trained everyone, my son, grandson and grand daughter this way. Situational awareness, assessment, NEVER THREATEN ANYONE WITH A FIREARM, decision to fire, pull the firearm, fire until no longer needed then return the firearm to its holster!

If you've made a decision to fire on an assailant and when you've acquired your target they have turned and ran CHECK YOUR FIRE!

 

[David Milisock]

I carry either 9mm or 9x18 Makarov pistols. Both rounds are stout enough for encounters involving other humans. If I am going to be walking in bear country(can't see that this will ever happen, but...), 7.62x25mm Tokarev should be enough at 1600 FPS.

I will say this, (from experience) there are bears then there are BEARS.

Once you experience 1,200 pounds 9 foot tall on two legs, I'm betting that 7.62x25 will feel like your first cap gun as a kid.
BTW my boy bought me a CZ57 in 7.62x25 FUN!

 

[David Milisock]

I really like the 40s&w, it’s been available when other’s weren’t and it downloads well like 45acp.
Is it a advantage over 9mm?
Not anymore.
I have no interest in 10mm but a 10mm carbine sounds fun and probably a good house gun.

There really never was any advantage over the 9mm vs the 40 S&W. In the hands of those who train they're tactical equals, in my opinion.

Do I like the 40? You bet! Do I own one? No, because I already had full, power 9mm+P+ loads for my 9 and 45 Super loads for my 45. I did move to the full power 357 Sig.

In the last 15 years I have recommended the 40 S&W to more families for home defense than any other cartridge because they were available used and in very good shape from police departments for less that half price.

A woman can practice enough with the 40 to be proficient because the best advice I could give was take the money you saved on the handgun and immediately buy practice ammo. Then PRACTICE!