Handgun Chambering Choices -- Serious Qs

[David Milisock]

I've carried the 45ACP and the 9X19 professionally. I got no complaints. A bit of background on my history and then the questions.

I believe 99.9% of effective concealed carry is concealment, whether I'm out in a coat and tie with the wife or a t-shirt and cargo shorts, many times over the last 30 years I carry a 9x18 Makarov.

Winter, with a 3/4 length leather coat a model 10 S&W with +p+ 125 grain is completely covered by the jacket but an easy slide of the hand makes it available.

Working where concealment wasn't that big a deal a 9mm+P, Glock 19 and my Para Ordinance P14-45 were often on my hip.

As the proliferation of body armor became an issue I upped the 45ACP load to 45 Super about 20 years ago and got a Glock 31 in 357 Sig with European loadings a few years ago. The Glock 31 rides on my hip when concealment is less of an issue as much as the Glock 19 now.

Big bear country there's a 6" Model 29 in 44 mag on my hip or across my chest, however the 357 Sig with the right projectile has significant penetration, a thought if it's not Kodiack size.

Just to be clear in any situation that's appropriate a rifle is near buy, a fully 100% functional 30 carbine, one of my AR's, or bear land may see a 98 Mauser in 8mm.

In any non-bear situation I never feel underarmed with my Makarov, if I'm carrying something else mostly it's because the handgun themselves fit my attire better or because they are tough and won't suffer in a working environment. I find myself with the P14-45 and the Glock 31 in 357 Sig in small bear country.

Now to my questions. What is all the hoopla about the 10MM and the 40 S&W? Do those preparing to defend themselves really think that it's the cartridge choice and not their brain that can win the day? What do you think about cartridge choice?

If so we need help.

 

[K22]

I am not self-defense expert or even enthusiast and I have never been in law enforcement however I have read a number of articles written by experts on the subject as a history buff.

If my memory is correct, the 40 S&W cartridge and pistol was developed in response to the FBI's need for a cartridge with greater stopping power and more sustained fire capability stemming from a gunfight in Florida where their service revolvers failed to perform. Why they didn't adopt the proven 45 ACP I can't remember but it would seem to me that would have been an easier and effective solution. The 10mm was never seriously consider due to the recoil.

Major G. C. Nonte, Jr. did extensive research on gunfights and published the results in his book entitled "Revolver Guide". While the book is focused on revolvers, it nevertheless discusses the salient points of gunfighting. His conclusion was that it was the willingness to use lethal force without hesitation that was the deciding factor in gunfights with the caveat that each participate was armed with an adequate and functioning weapon.

Another article I read some time ago written by a British Army Officer who trained commando's during WWII stated that in a close combat lethal confrontation, one will never see the sights on a pistol because of what he termed the "tactical psyche" affect where in the total focus will be on the threat in front of one. Thus, he was an advocate of training the "instinctive" shooting technique for close combat with a pistol. I think the FBI now teaches this too, but I am not sure.

I've read a host of other articles that also reflect the aforementioned concepts. So, to answer your question based on what I've read, it's kind all these factors. In other words, an adequate caliber with sufficient stopping power, the critical tactical training and skill and the willingness to use lethal force that are the deciding factors.

In my opinion, one's decision to carry a firearm for self-defense is a serious decision. It would be wise to obtain the best training possible with a complete understanding of the laws governing the use of lethal force.

 

[Steel Mover]

It depends on what you will carry, not what you might carry. I have carried a 45 ACP for years in a 1911. However, I live in a hot humid area where clothing is thin and light weight, I carry a custom 380 Keltec with Corbon 90s, with an extended grip magazine. I can carry it fully concealed and walk right up to you, in a very unthreading manner.
The 40 is an FBI attempt to detune the 10mm, so that is like having a muscle car with a 4 banger in it. The 10mm is a better choice, if and only if you can shoot it. Concealed, not so much in a hot and humid summer situation.

 

[Lkwebb]

Shot placement is the most important (we all know that)
If a lady was carrying a .380 then bullet choice is very detrimental( lehigh defense).
I love the my 357 sig but you do have to keep in mind about over penetration to a degree.
My everyday carry is a 9mm but have a sig .40 and a 357 sig around the house.
I personally think anything above a .380 is a good choice no matter what your flavor is.
IMO

 

[ebb]

You need both, and if like you say the perp is wearing body armor, maybe a little luck besides.

 

[Explorer1]

Close...
The 10mm was developed as the result of that shootout. Then when the recoil was too much for many agents, a 10mm Lite load was created at the request of the agency. Then an equivalent cartridge was created using a shortened 10mm case so it would fit in a 9mm size frame, resulting in the .40 S&W - sometimes affectionately called the "Short and Weak."
Yes, all that to basically return to .45 ACP ballistics!

 

[Eagle Six]

I think for some it's a fad, fads come and go. There is a reason 9's are so popular, they are easy to shoot, easy to carry, and reasonably effective with more recent loading available. For many of the 10 folks they picked it because of the ballistics, they shoot it well, so why not. Besides it bigger than a 9!

Personally I carry a 11 1/2 mm. I have direct experience with it's capability, it fits me, and it's comfortable. Often I'll carry more than one, with the purpose of fighting my way to a real gun with a much longer barrel.

 

[D-4297]

I have ; and carry both a Makarov 9 x 18 , P64 , Polish version and a Glock 22 , 40 . The data I have read tells me that the .40 has 75-80% of the velocity of a .357 , based on the load . And 75% of the stopping power of a .45 ACP at twice the distance . In other words ; I can hit a target twice as far away with my Forty load , and get the same "Hit" as a .45 at closer range , due to velocity and Bullet loaded .

From the "FWIW" Dept. I regularly shoot the G22 at 100 yards , at a fifty foot pistol target , and very seldom lose a round out of the Black . It's a Berry's 185gr Extreme HP . Velocity runs 1230 - 1240 fps .

 

[ronsatspokane]

The 40 is jokingly called the short and weak. The story being that the 10mm proved too much for the accountants and lawyers at the FBI so they toned it down. Still a good round but rapidly falling out of favor. Meanwhile there seems to be renewed interest in the 10. I know a couple of people who carry it instead of a monster revolver when in bear country. Underwood ammo makes the original 10mm loads and they are stout. Had an EAA Witness Hunter years back. Did a round of caliber consolidation and sold it. Still regret that.

As far as do any of them substitute for training, of course not. A .22 in the hands of a trained person will win over a 10 in the hands of someone who is not trained. Especially when they put one of those mighty 10mm bullets through their foot.

 

[Laurie]

If my memory is correct, the 40 S&W cartridge and pistol was developed in response to the FBI's need for a cartridge with greater stopping power and more sustained fire capability stemming from a gunfight in Florida where their service revolvers failed to perform.

It was this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

dramatized in the later made for TV movie 'In the Line of Duty: The FBI Killings' with David Soul in a very different role from his Starsky & Hutch good guy persona

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Line_of_Duty:_The_F.B.I._Murders

One of the key issues was Agent Dove's superb shot at Platt with a 9mm auto which would have been fatal if the target hadn't had his arm across his chest so it had to penetrate the arm before the chest cavity. The bullet stopped short and failed to produce what should have been a quick-kill heart shot, although Platt suffered injuries that would have killed him - eventually. He lived long enough to inflict serous / fatal injuries on the team of agents.

In the after-action review both the lethality of the LEA cartridges and types/reliability/ capacity of the weapons drew criticism. On the cartridge choice, it was found there was little scientific knowledge of wound ballistics the subjected neglected ever since the infamous Thompson / Laguarde stockyard tests and human corpse shootings that led to the US Army adopting the 45 ACP generations earlier.

This led to adopting a 10mm/40 calibre, initially in the 10mm cartridge. Recoil /training issues aside, I read at the time that one reason the cut-down 40 S&W shortened version was finally adopted was that at a time of female agents and police officers being recruited in large numbers, there were problems with the deep 10mm pistol's grips being too deep for many women's smaller hands to hold the pistols properly - no idea if this was true or just a misogynist rumour!

However, the real killer of the LEA 40 calibre must surely be the huge improvements in pistol bullets' terminal performance in a variety of situations, penetrating clothing etc since the 1980s much of which arose out of the FBI and other LEAs' funded research and demands for 'more killing power' from 9mm bullets at 9mm Para velocities from a typical semi-auto pistol.

 

[284winner]

Close...
The 10mm was developed as the result of that shootout. Then when the recoil was too much for many agents, a 10mm Lite load was created at the request of the agency. Then an equivalent cartridge was created using a shortened 10mm case so it would fit in a 9mm size frame, resulting in the .40 S&W - sometimes affectionately called the "Short and Weak."
Yes, all that to basically return to .45 ACP ballistics!

Recoil and over penetration on the 10 mm was the main problem. Back in the '80s they didn't make real good 40 caliber bullets for personal defense. After many shoots it was determined that the bullets went through multiple objects before stopping. Today's 40 caliber bullets shot through the 10 mm would be very effective.

 

[CJ6]

I have a 10 mm but it has a 6 " bbl so not a carry piece. What I carry most of the time is a Sig 220C 45 or a Ruger Speed Six 3" 357.

 

[357Mag]

I've carried the 45ACP and the 9X19 professionally. I got no complaints. A bit of background on my history and then the questions.

I believe 99.9% of effective concealed carry is concealment, whether I'm out in a coat and tie with the wife or a t-shirt and cargo shorts, many times over the last 30 years I carry a 9x18 Makarov.

Winter, with a 3/4 length leather coat a model 10 S&W with +p+ 125 grain is completely covered by the jacket but an easy slide of the hand makes it available.

Working where concealment wasn't that big a deal a 9mm+P, Glock 19 and my Para Ordinance P14-45 were often on my hip.

As the proliferation of body armor became an issue I upped the 45ACP load to 45 Super about 20 years ago and got a Glock 31 in 357 Sig with European loadings a few years ago. The Glock 31 rides on my hip when concealment is less of an issue as much as the Glock 19 now.

Big bear country there's a 6" Model 29 in 44 mag on my hip or across my chest, however the 357 Sig with the right projectile has significant penetration, a thought if it's not Kodiack size.

Just to be clear in any situation that's appropriate a rifle is near buy, a fully 100% functional 30 carbine, one of my AR's, or bear land may see a 98 Mauser in 8mm.

In any non-bear situation I never feel underarmed with my Makarov, if I'm carrying something else mostly it's because the handgun themselves fit my attire better or because they are tough and won't suffer in a working environment. I find myself with the P14-45 and the Glock 31 in 357 Sig in small bear country.

Now to my questions. What is all the hoopla about the 10MM and the 40 S&W? Do those preparing to defend themselves really think that it's the cartridge choice and not their brain that can win the day? What do you think about cartridge choice?
effectiven
If so we need help.

Dave -
still
Howdy !

There has been assembled in the past, a report on handgun cartridge " effectiveness "for one shot " stops " on humans. This came largely from law enforcement experiences.

What has been shown is: those cartridges that have exhibited the highest
" effectiveness " at stopping humans are those that can deliver around 420+ ft lbs of energy to the target. This includes things like the classic .45ACP " ball " round as one example, some .38 Super loads, multiple .40 S & W loads; and the .357Mag in a variety of
bullet weights. The latter has/had the top rating, when shooting Remington or Federal 125JHPs. The .357Mag still works well today ( more on the civilian side ), albeit it has fallen from favor for large scale law enforcement use; being supplanted by the .40 S & W .
The .357Mag presented it's own challenges for shooters to master, and another approach was suggested....

The .40 S & W generates useful energy levels while keeping recoil forces comparatively lower than the .357Mag, by striking a balance w/ calibre.... bullet wt.... and deliverable energy. The .40 S & W is in simple terms.... an updated version of the " .38-40 " from olde.
There's no goofy rim, and cartridge " load out " numbers exceed that of common 6-shot revolvers. Joe Average found the .40 S & W easier to shoot (than a .357Mag for example), and the number of cartridges that could be kept @ the ready in a magazine(s) held some appeal.

I carry a 4" "N"-frame .357Mag, and have done so for decades, after first carrying a 6"
M-28 and later a 5" barrelled .357Mag for self defense. I want to carry a .357Mag, and have chosen the 125JHP factory load. This combo generates some 525ft lb of M.E.

*** I am not suggesting to anybody, that they carry a .357Mag . My custom 4" "N" suits my needs, and.... I make it a point to " dress " so that I can successfully carry it concealed. *** You'll make your own informed choices.

IMHO - things like +P loads were an attempt to bring lower-powered cartridges closer to the 420ft lb energy level threshold ( I. E. give them greater " stopping power " ); otherwise they would not have gone to the trouble and expense to manufacture them.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[C.E.Smith043]

I carry a 9mm. Why, because I'm good with it, can hit with it, and I'm very confident with it.

For some reason I completely suck at shooting larger calibers, ie. 45acp, 10mm, 40, ect.

For me, it's about being confident in my gun and my abilities to perform with it.

Confidence for me is a huge factor. Even more so than the caliber

 

[muleystalker]

Close...
The 10mm was developed as the result of that shootout. Then when the recoil was too much for many agents, a 10mm Lite load was created at the request of the agency. Then an equivalent cartridge was created using a shortened 10mm case so it would fit in a 9mm size frame, resulting in the .40 S&W - sometimes affectionately called the "Short and Weak."
Yes, all that to basically return to .45 ACP ballistics!

But you can fit a .40 into a 9mm size frame and carry more rounds than the .45, thats the advantage.

 

[Snozzberries]

I like the FAQ from Seecamp:

FAQs - Seecamp Firearms

Seecamp Firearms FAQ page is designed to answer any questions or concerns you may have regarding your Seecamp Firearm or accessories.

seecamp.com

Why are there no sights on my Seecamp?​

TLDR: Because they are pointless on a self-defense concealed carry gun.

Is 32ACP enough? Enough for what?

The best concealed carry gun, is the one you carry with you, not the "superior" one you leave at home.

 

[JSH]

I really think the 10mm came back on the scene again for one reason, ammo availability. I mean 2-3 years ago with the whole “situation” no 38 special or 45ACP to be had with out selling a kidney for a box. Yet every gunshop I frequented had 10mm ammo because that was ALL that was available and it was reasonably priced if not almost cheap.
Don’t get me wrong there has always been a following with the 10mm, just not a large one.
I see the 10mm as a 41 special for an auto.
I see folks talk about it for bear protection, guess it beats a sharp stick or a pen knife. Would not be my choice for that task, especially if I knew there were such critters near by.
On the flip side, if the 10mm is the most horsepower you can control accurately in a handgun then it is for you.
Two legged pest tend not to fight back as a four legged does.

 

[Laurie]

On a perhaps less serious note, I once read a suggestion many, many years ago from one of the gurus on pistols for self-defence, that the best indoor self-defence combination was the little five-shot Charter Arms Bulldog snubby in 44 Magnum loaded with full-house rounds.

The rationale was that fired in a typical bedroom at an intruder, you didn't need to hit him as the muzzle blast and noise would have him stumbling around and very effectively disabled. The weakness in this not too serious suggestion was that the homeowner would need to keep ear protection as well as the revolver on the bedside cabinet, otherwise he/she too would be staggering around leaking blood from the ears.

 

[Richard Jones]

@David Milisock
Respectfully, what hoopla? Are you talking about something recent?

The 10mm 'craze' that I see on the internet is all geared to bears. A lot of the guide services recommend a Glock 20 in a chest rig. More rounds, easier to shoot than a 44 mag. A 200 gr. hard cast pushing 1250 fps. is pretty potent if placed correctly. I honestly haven't seen anyone touting .40S&W for quite some time. It's all either 9 or 45. Nothing wrong with a good 40 load, and it might net you another round in the mag, if that's important.

It appears that more research, time, effort, energy, etc., has gone into 9mm bullets and rounds than anything else. I carry either a 9 or 45, depending upon my mood. Having shot zillions of rounds, mostly in USPSA, I feel confident in my ability to shoot and control a handgun. I don't think I would ever carry my 10mm, at least for any human interaction. I'd carry a 40 S&W in a heartbeat, and have, with good ammo.

ETA: I guess, all being said, that I no longer feel that a 9mm leaves me undergunned......

 

[BigBolt]

I've carried the 45ACP and the 9X19 professionally. I got no complaints. A bit of background on my history and then the questions.

I believe 99.9% of effective concealed carry is concealment, whether I'm out in a coat and tie with the wife or a t-shirt and cargo shorts, many times over the last 30 years I carry a 9x18 Makarov.

Winter, with a 3/4 length leather coat a model 10 S&W with +p+ 125 grain is completely covered by the jacket but an easy slide of the hand makes it available.

Working where concealment wasn't that big a deal a 9mm+P, Glock 19 and my Para Ordinance P14-45 were often on my hip.

As the proliferation of body armor became an issue I upped the 45ACP load to 45 Super about 20 years ago and got a Glock 31 in 357 Sig with European loadings a few years ago. The Glock 31 rides on my hip when concealment is less of an issue as much as the Glock 19 now.

Big bear country there's a 6" Model 29 in 44 mag on my hip or across my chest, however the 357 Sig with the right projectile has significant penetration, a thought if it's not Kodiack size.

Just to be clear in any situation that's appropriate a rifle is near buy, a fully 100% functional 30 carbine, one of my AR's, or bear land may see a 98 Mauser in 8mm.

In any non-bear situation I never feel underarmed with my Makarov, if I'm carrying something else mostly it's because the handgun themselves fit my attire better or because they are tough and won't suffer in a working environment. I find myself with the P14-45 and the Glock 31 in 357 Sig in small bear country.

Now to my questions. What is all the hoopla about the 10MM and the 40 S&W? Do those preparing to defend themselves really think that it's the cartridge choice and not their brain that can win the day? What do you think about cartridge choice?

If so we need help.

Like most things in life, it is not the tool but how it is used. One and done is my motto I carry both 9mm and 40 S&W for the 2 legged. When in bear country it is my .500 S&W.