Hammer Forged Barrel - Pros and Cons?

[Phil3]

I would do it, but not a real BR shooter, and as you said, where to get a blank. I have some experience in procuring things, and may be able to do something, but someone else would have to take the finished product, build the rifle and do precision unbiased tests. Those tests would be time consuming.

Phil

 

[Raythemanroe]

And pointless. Sorry keep hearing stories about white buffalo! There out there, My money isn't on seeing one..

 

[Phil3]

And pointless. Sorry keep hearing stories about white buffalo! There out there, My money isn't on seeing one..

Your bias against hammer forged barrels is clear, but the proof as to how they can actually perform when constructed to high standards, in a BR setting is not. Therefore, such a test is not pointless.

Phil

 

[D-mon]

And even if it is not becoming a competitive rig for proper br competition, it could still be a good varmint hunting rig.
By the way, that might be the ticket for all those prairie dog shooters out there: a cheaper barrel that last longer and maybe accurate enough to shoot all he PD's you want for the first 300 to 500 yards depending on accuracy!

Nd

 

[LHSmith]

Pointless to the point of being absurd.........First, a "one of" test would confirm nadda ........ 2nd, a great barrel (aka a "hummer"), can only be verified by SHOOTING it- the bore/rifling can look textbook perfect and run true between centers.......and it may shoot worse than a barrel that appears to have "issues"- i.e 3runout, chatter marks, curved like a rainbow......3rd, if a barrel is "straightened",as is done for HF bbls, experience shows it will forever want to return to it's original form as it heats up.
In BR the barrel WILL get heated (many HOF shooters will get their 5 record shots off in ~ 12 seconds after shooting perhaps 10 or more sighters with-in each 7 minute Match)......so ANY stress in the barrel WILL move POI as it heats up..........remember what it takes to win....@ 100 yards you must be capable of shooting 5 ea 5-shot groups which average ~ 0.1700" in a Group contest......in a Score contest, it takes hitting a 1/16" dot (which is about the size of fly crap) 23/24 times out of 25 record shots.....In other words, ANY movement will have you chasing shots = @ bottom of results list with the factory class.
Again, Why do factory bbls. with their theoretical ability to produce a more perfect bore suffer from 1/ increased copper fouling 2/ incomplete lands 3/ change POI after 3 -5 shots? If the HF "process" produces a more dimensionally uniform bore, why do so many factory bbls have defects in their rifling?
The very fact that contouring alters the bore dimensions to the point that they can be measured in the tenths (as does fluting) in all but cut rifled barrels is very telling.....that method induces the least internal stress. Also, experience has shown that button rifled barrels can be successfully stress relieved, although it is best to contour these before final lapping. The fact that HF barrels change internal dimensions opposite that of button barrels when contouring is not a good sign.....the entire bbl. O.D. and I.D. was hammered thousands/millions of cycles where-as the button method simply swages the I.D.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Phil3, Where is the proof? I see how there made and see how they can be made to compare with good barrels. I see people getting fair results with them. please don't use Europe for an example, How many cut barrel company's do they have? I want leader board examples or record breaking results not a bunch of hype and opinion!

 

[CatShooter]

So, who is up to doing a test with 6mm HF blank chambered in 6 ppc or 6 mmbr and mounted on a BR rig?
And where would you get such a blank? Ruger? Steyr ?

Nd

It would be hard to do in 6mm, cuz the factory barrels are chambered for 243, which is a huge chamber...

... but in 22, it is do-able.

If a 223 can be found that is either new or lightly used, one can pull the barrel, set it back a few threads to clean up the old chamber and throat, and then chamber it for a 22 PPC with a match grade NT reamer.

Then take a top of the line,, custom barrel .224, 12tw barrel and turn it to the exact same contour, and chamber it with the same reamer.

Mount both in equal H-S stocks with epoxie bedding, and you will have a very good comparison model.

I I don't think the factory barrel will shoot smaller (though stranger things have happened), but I think some "Barrel Snobs" would be very surprised at how well the factory HF barrel performed.

I am currently resurrecting a 700 VSF in 22-250, that was bought to be stripped for the action and H-S varmint stock, and was reputed by an "expert" gunsmith to have a defective barrel - the original owner could not get groups smaller than 3" with factory match ammunition, after the expert gunsmith had glass bedded it when it was new.

I bought it for the parts, but it turned out to have been very badly epoxy bedded. I repaired the badd bedding, and now it now shoots constantly in the 3's with plastic tip hunting bullets (SBK's)... with no other efforts other than correcting the poor bedding that the dealer/gunsmith did when it was new.

I believe that these HF barrels are capable of far more than we give them credit for.... and the bad performance comes from sloppy chambering with crappy junk reamers.

 

[JDMock]

Not all Remington barrels are hammer forged. The 40X barrels and many from the Custom shop are button rifled....a process perfected by the late Mike Walker when he was with Remington. He allowed Hart to use his technology to make their fine barrels. Hammer forging is okay, but it is not the best method for producing ultimate accuracy. If the HF barrels were "just as good', they would show up more in the winners column at BR matches. Good shooting....James

 

[GSPV]

But none are hammer forged.

Thats because a hammer forging machine is very expensive. The small custom barrelsmith have much cheaper cut rifling machines

My point is that it doesn't matter how we there, the end product has to be competitive. I can't go buy a competitive hammer forged barrel. I have a plethora of choices for deep drilled and then button or cut rifled.

 

[GSPV]

That bottom line is that, all attributes considered, there are no competitive barrels that are hammer forged.

We can get them from different barrel smiths. We can get them button rifled or cut rifled. There is even one maker that doesn't hand lap.

But none are hammer forged.

Who doesnt lap their barrels?

Douglas

 

[moorepower]

I have heard that the Remington barrels that looked the the one in the video were not hammered as long as the forge mfg. told them to so that Remington could make more barrels per hour. If true, not the hammer forged barrel's fault. I would also venture to guess that a quality hammer forged barrel will not have many/any more misses in the dogtown than a high quality aftermarket barrel inside of 400 yds. That being said, shooting center mass at a 3" target is not like trying to shoot 5 into the same hole. A very wise man once told me hammer forged barrels shoot well in spite of being hammer forged, and I tend to believe that. It would be interesting to have a great smith dial one in and hand chamber however. Alot of the Weaver rifles I have seen have had setback Remington barrels that shoot lights out.

 

[wyoming .260]

I have heard CM shilen barrels are not lapped
[/quote
]No kidding there ,I had a 7mm br barrel, chrome moly Shilen that attracted copper like it was electrically charged. I grow tomatoes around it now!!!!!!!!

 

[Raythemanroe]

JDMock,

Amen to that! reply about Remington barrels, Not all of there's are made by them. I know Hardinge bro's made a batch a while back that had problems staying together! This isn't gossip, I have family that works for Hardinge and Remington!

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Hammer forging is about 10 times as fast as cut-rifling, and the equipment cost is about 10 times higher for the hammer forging. [The other barrel-making processes -- e.g., deep hole drilling, lapping or honing, profiling -- are the same, regardless of the method of rifling.]

So, in principle, one manufacturer of benchrest-quality hammer-forged barrels could put all of the U.S cut-rifled barrel makers out of business, since the per-unit cost of hammer forging is lower, and the production rate is higher for hammer forging.

I don't subscribe to the argument that the equipment cost is keeping hammer-forged barrels off the winner's equipment list in the elite accuracy games. Many of the top custom barrel- and action-making shops already have $1M (or much more) in their CNC eqpt inventory, so they are comfortable investing heavily in the tooling they think they need.

If an enterprising hammer forger could make top-20 quality benchrest barrels for, say, $250 per blank, he or she could easily corner the market and presumably make a tidy profit. Think about it -- with a 6mm 13 (or 14) twist carbide mandrel attached to a "standard" 6PPC chamber mandrel, the hammer forging process could produce a CHAMBERED point blank benchrest barrel for much, much less than the cost of a cut- or button-rifled blank that has to be chambered in a separate ~$200 machining operation.

There are two obvious explanations for why hammer forging hasn't made a dent in the ultimate accuracy games -- either it isn't possible to produce a high proportion of super accurate barrels by hammer forging, or nobody has tried hard enough. I wonder which it is?

 

[Steve Blair]

So, in principle, one manufacturer of benchrest-quality hammer-forged barrels could put all of the U.S cut-rifled barrel makers out of business, since the per-unit cost of hammer forging is lower, and the production rate is higher for hammer forging.

[br]
I don't think any other process can equal the stress-freedom and control that single-point cut rifling enjoys. But, doesn't your comment above ignore capital costs and amortization? Even if hammer forging could produce a benchrest quality barrel, the total worldwide market for barrels of that quality would probably not justify the capital expense. It's a niche market.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Hammer forging is about 10 times as fast as cut-rifling, and the equipment cost is about 10 times higher for the hammer forging. [The other barrel-making processes -- e.g., deep hole drilling, lapping or honing, profiling -- are the same, regardless of the method of rifling.]

So, in principle, one manufacturer of benchrest-quality hammer-forged barrels could put all of the U.S cut-rifled barrel makers out of business, since the per-unit cost of hammer forging is lower, and the production rate is higher for hammer forging.

I don't subscribe to the argument that the equipment cost is keeping hammer-forged barrels off the winner's equipment list in the elite accuracy games. Many of the top custom barrel- and action-making shops already have $1M (or much more) in their CNC eqpt inventory, so they are comfortable investing heavily in the tooling they think they need.

If an enterprising hammer forger could make top-20 quality benchrest barrels for, say, $250 per blank, he or she could easily corner the market and presumably make a tidy profit. Think about it -- with a 6mm 13 (or 14) twist carbide mandrel attached to a "standard" 6PPC chamber mandrel, the hammer forging process could produce a CHAMBERED point blank benchrest barrel for much, much less than the cost of a cut- or button-rifled blank that has to be chambered in a separate ~$200 machining operation.

There are two obvious explanations for why hammer forging hasn't made a dent in the ultimate accuracy games -- either it isn't possible to produce a high proportion of super accurate barrels by hammer forging, or nobody has tried hard enough. I wonder which it is?

Just said it better then me thats all!

 

[Phil3]

Even if hammer forging could produce a benchrest quality barrel, the total worldwide market for barrels of that quality would probably not justify the capital expense. It's a niche market.

Yup. Simple economics. Not saying a HF barrel IS superior to anything, but even if it was, no one would do it. Millions in machinery to make relatively few barrels? It would be forever to get a ROI (return on investment). Anybody who did that would be out of business.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

Hammer forging is about 10 times as fast as cut-rifling, and the equipment cost is about 10 times higher for the hammer forging. [The other barrel-making processes -- e.g., deep hole drilling, lapping or honing, profiling -- are the same, regardless of the method of rifling.]

So, in principle, one manufacturer of benchrest-quality hammer-forged barrels could put all of the U.S cut-rifled barrel makers out of business, since the per-unit cost of hammer forging is lower, and the production rate is higher for hammer forging.

IF there is enough demand to repay the cost of the equipment in a short enough period of time (return on investment). I doubt there is (enough demand).

I don't subscribe to the argument that the equipment cost is keeping hammer-forged barrels off the winner's equipment list in the elite accuracy games. Many of the top custom barrel- and action-making shops already have $1M (or much more) in their CNC eqpt inventory, so they are comfortable investing heavily in the tooling they think they need.

True, but again, only if there is enough demand and resulting profit to make the investment in the expensive equipment worthwhile. I don't think it is. I wish we knew how many cut rifled barrels are made for the US each year. I wouldn't be surprised that number is so low that HF equipment could satisfy that need in a short period and stay idle for the majority of the year. Not a prescription for business success.

If an enterprising hammer forger could make top-20 quality benchrest barrels for, say, $250 per blank, he or she could easily corner the market and presumably make a tidy profit. Think about it -- with a 6mm 13 (or 14) twist carbide mandrel attached to a "standard" 6PPC chamber mandrel, the hammer forging process could produce a CHAMBERED point blank benchrest barrel for much, much less than the cost of a cut- or button-rifled blank that has to be chambered in a separate ~$200 machining operation.

And the annual demand for a 6PPC ready to go barrel is...? Not nearly enough to pay for millions of dollars in equipment. If I was a business man wealthy enough to try this, I never would since I don't like losing my financial shirt.

There are two obvious explanations for why hammer forging hasn't made a dent in the ultimate accuracy games -- either it isn't possible to produce a high proportion of super accurate barrels by hammer forging, or nobody has tried hard enough. I wonder which it is?

Possibly your first option and I thought it would be interesting to run tests to try and get a better understanding. Or possibly your second option, with manufacturers feeling there is too much bias and favor amongst the customers to stick with one thing (this thread makes clear certainly some feel that way), and it would take far too long to win over customers. And the third option is that the niche market is too small to make the equipment investment worthwhile. The truth is either one, two, or all three, and we will never know without input from people far more expert and which are deeply immersed in barrel making.

Phil

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I don't think any other process can equal the stress-freedom and control that single-point cut rifling enjoys. But, doesn't your comment above ignore capital costs and amortization?

I didn't ignore capital costs. Right now the US market supports something on the order of 10 custom barrel makers (cut- or button-rifled). And their backlog has gone from "long" to "ridiculous." So I think it's safe to say that a hammer-forger with benchrest-quality barrels, a lower price point, and a shorter turnaround could own a large share (maybe all) of the market, and easily pay for the machine (10X the cost, but 10X the production rate, making the debt service not a problem as long as the machine stays busy). Machine lifetimes are similar for all methods of rifling, so amortization is the same (in percentage terms).

We know that hammer forges can and do pay for themselves (with room to spare), because they are currently the lowest-cost option for barrel making. I.e., their return on investment is higher than for other rifling methods.

Even if hammer forging could produce a benchrest quality barrel, the total worldwide market for barrels of that quality would probably not justify the capital expense. It's a niche market.

Really? Given the current (and previous) short supply of benchrest-quality barrels (=long wait times), I don't think that we're approaching a glut.

 

[Raythemanroe]

People far more expert and which are deeply immersed in barrel making are gonna be a little bias don't you think? You argue the fact that HF barrel manufactures don't have the financial gain to try to compete with custom barrel makers correct? There is that white buffalo again HF barrels can possibly turn out great barrels and cut barrel manufactures can possibly turn out bad ones..The majority of custom barrels are awesome and better then most shooters not so much for HF barrels!