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Glue In - The Benefits?

Eddie Harren said:
"We dont use the 700 for competition any longer."

Speak for yourself. There are still some very good shooting Remington 700 action based, IBS Hunter Class rifles being used in competition. There are still a few records in the IBS book that were set with Remington actions.
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I was speaking for myself.
Never said a Remington cant be made to shoot. But no one asks me to build Br rigs on them.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
I do also believe that it changes the way harmonics are managed but I've never tested this with any kind of measuring equipment to verify it, good or bad.
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I think this is the general rule of many things rifle related, lots of people have gut feelings about certain aspects of rifle building whereas very few have any hard data to prove them. What data there might be probably wouldn't stand up that well to scrutiny either.

I can buy into the point about glue making the best connection between the barrelled action and the stock and se feel I will lean towards doing it on my new build. The question of course is how easy is it to demonstrate a real world advantage to glue in over a good bedding job under 1000yd BR format when so many other things can influence accuracy and group sizes.
 
Curious said:
I think this is the general rule of many things rifle related, lots of people have gut feelings about certain aspects of rifle building whereas very few have any hard data to prove them. What data there might be probably wouldn't stand up that well to scrutiny either.

I can buy into the point about glue making the best connection between the barrelled action and the stock and se feel I will lean towards doing it on my new build. The question of course is how easy is it to demonstrate a real world advantage to glue in over a good bedding job under 1000yd BR format when so many other things can influence accuracy and group sizes.
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Bed it and then glue it in half way through a season. I used to test a lot of things that way. But dont not do something because "the wind will blow you out more than the accuracy gain". I read that stuff often. Guys talking themselves out of potential accuracy improvements because theres wind? I do not share that mentality. Theres always wind, smaller groups are better in wind too. I also read about guys wanting "hard data". Theres no money involved in Br. Hard data takes time and money. When target proof is just so simple. Hard data is usually just to convince others of what we already know from the targets. So I doubt you will see any. I do however plan to do some stock vibration data collection and one of the things I plan to do is before and after glue in. It may be interesting but I already know what happens on target so it will be kind of redundant.
 
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"We dont use the 700 for competition any longer."
"I was speaking for myself."
My mistake. I thought "we" was plural.

I don't get much call for BR rifles with Rem 700 actions anymore either. Not since both sanctioning organizations started the process of destroying the Hunter and Varmint Hunter classes by allowing "custom actions".
 
I used to work with aerospace composites. Glue turns out to be a very good way to stick things together (I know, shocker). The trouble with screws in this application is that they are basically point forces, and they work by holding the action to the stock with friction, which is notoriously unreliable. We were forbidden to rely on friction to take shear at work - we had to have a pin, lug, or other positive mechanism to take shear load, and bolts don't count for other reasons. For that to work consistently, you need a very tight tolerance fit and the screws need to be tight. Over time, gunsmiths have figured this out, and that's why we have pillars and bedding jobs. The recoil lug is as much a way to locate the action as it is a constraint on recoil. This works, of course. But it's prone to degradation if disassembled frequently. Solvents, oils, etc can get in there.

A proper glue in with the right adhesive and bond thickness (the optimal thickness depends on the adhesive - we used to use wires to set it precisely) is incredibly strong in shear - I would guess it's stronger than the stock. A recoil lug in that case is totally unnecessary. If you read Harold Vaughn's book, at least some of recoil force in a properly bedded rifle will go through the recoil lug. This unbalanced force, in turn, drives barrel vibration in the vertical plane. A glue-in reacts the recoil force at the bond line, which is closer to the bore axis, and will impart a smaller moment to drive vibration.

I'm not willing to say that's automatically better, but it is different. A rifle with no driving moment ought to be very consistent (this is an ideal that does not exist). But a little may be desirable to exploit positive compensation. Quantifying that is difficult.
 
Eddie Harren said:
"We dont use the 700 for competition any longer."
"I was speaking for myself."
My mistake. I thought "we" was plural.

I don't get much call for BR rifles with Rem 700 actions anymore either. Not since both sanctioning organizations started the process of destroying the Hunter and Varmint Hunter classes by allowing "custom actions".
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We is plural. Me and my customers :) But I think we are on the same page now. I think a true factory action hunter class would be cool especially in long range. But thats another topic.
 
damoncali said:
I used to work with aerospace composites. Glue turns out to be a very good way to stick things together (I know, shocker). The trouble with screws in this application is that they are basically point forces, and they work by holding the action to the stock with friction, which is notoriously unreliable. We were forbidden to rely on friction to take shear at work - we had to have a pin, lug, or other positive mechanism to take shear load, and bolts don't count for other reasons. For that to work consistently, you need a very tight tolerance fit and the screws need to be tight. Over time, gunsmiths have figured this out, and that's why we have pillars and bedding jobs. The recoil lug is as much a way to locate the action as it is a constraint on recoil. This works, of course. But it's prone to degradation if disassembled frequently. Solvents, oils, etc can get in there.

A proper glue in with the right adhesive and bond thickness (the optimal thickness depends on the adhesive - we used to use wires to set it precisely) is incredibly strong in shear - I would guess it's stronger than the stock. A recoil lug in that case is totally unnecessary. If you read Harold Vaughn's book, at least some of recoil force in a properly bedded rifle will go through the recoil lug. This unbalanced force, in turn, drives barrel vibration in the vertical plane. A glue-in reacts the recoil force at the bond line, which is closer to the bore axis, and will impart a smaller moment to drive vibration.

I'm not willing to say that's automatically better, but it is different. A rifle with no driving moment ought to be very consistent (this is an ideal that does not exist). But a little may be desirable to exploit positive compensation. Quantifying that is difficult.
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All great points. Exploiting pc for me in the area your thinking comes form the center of gravity. I dont think glue vs bedding would change the moment if c/g was the same in the stock.
 
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Alex Wheeler said:
s a role?
All great points. Exploiting pc for me in the area your thinking comes form the center of gravity. I dont think glue vs bedding would change the moment if c/g was the same in the stock.
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Yes - the inertial loads of the stock and scope (and anything else not perfectly symmetric to the bore) will drive vibrations, so we can't eliminate them. The glue in just changes the reaction force location, so it should change the dynamics when fired (assuming the glue takes all the recoil). Not necessarily for the better, but it should be different, and I would guess the vibration would be slightly lower in magnitude. My gut says the primary benefit of glue is the elimination of any slippage or warping. There's a lot of "I guess" and "my gut says" in there. The proof comes from where the rubber hits the road - on the target. And with vibration work, there is no way around real world testing - it's just too complex to calculate your way through it with any precision. But sometimes some analysis can give you a good idea as to what things can have a meaningful impact.
 
Any other recommended adhesives besides JB weld ? Which JB Weld ?
Any pics or posts showing an application, putting the glue to the wood or the steel ?
What would be the things for a first timer to avoid, common mistakes ? What can we learn from others mistakes ? I have a Mossberg ATR 100 in .243 and a Microfit stock that doesn't. Nothing to loose. -thanks
 
Curious said:
I think this is the general rule of many things rifle related, lots of people have gut feelings about certain aspects of rifle building whereas very few have any hard data to prove them. What data there might be probably wouldn't stand up that well to scrutiny either.

I can buy into the point about glue making the best connection between the barrelled action and the stock and se feel I will lean towards doing it on my new build. The question of course is how easy is it to demonstrate a real world advantage to glue in over a good bedding job under 1000yd BR format when so many other things can influence accuracy and group sizes.
Click to expand...
I've done some vibration analysis but not specifically in regard to glued vs bedded.
I too, would like to see perhaps accelerometer testing by someone qualified. If that's you, do it and let us know how it goes.
It doesn't have to be gut feeling when it's very likely quantifiable. I'm not sure who is supposed to do this type of thing but it's interesting and there is almost always good info to come from such testing. Have at it and let us all know.
 
I have the stuff to do vibration tests- accelerometers and siesmic and can sample 48,000/sec. i use it for fire control system mapping. Next time i drag it all out ill test one that is pillar bedded but needs glued. It has one of those ooh ahh bedding jobs people kill for but a dial indicator tells me it needs glued but the target doesnt yet.
 
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