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Getting tired of the equiptment race.

I agree it does take a good barrel and it does take a lot of work to win and finish towards the top often.

If everyones rifle, rest, ammo, and scope was the same it would be boring. nobody would try anything different or discover any new technology or ways of doing anything. Seeing all of the different rifles and hearing everybody's different ways of doing things and reasons for building they're rifles they way they did is what makes it fun. they first time I saw a heavy gun I wanted one for myself and it took me a year to be able to afford to build one. i don't have deep pockets but I like competing with people who do.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
MOShooter said:
Golf is my main hobby. Getting equipment that is properly fit is far more important than have the lastest greatest stuff. As with all hobbies, its the person preforming that has more with winning and loosing. I laugh when I here people say how expensive golf is. It's not nearly a high as shooting sports.
Where do you play, and are playing with the top golfers in the world, like you can in BR? Are we comparing apple to apples? Is your golf equipment scrutinized the same way as your BR equipment, by yourself? I mean, are you playing with the same level of equipment at both games? I ask this because there are different budgets to be competitive in both. A person can pick up an older sleeved xp100 br rifle and flat wear out the most expensive, newest equipment with it, if it and he are capable....and some of them still are very competitive in BR.

My tournament golf is played at city and state Am level. I wish I was good enough to compete at a higher level but a 1.6 HCP won't get you far as a pro. I do play often with Mizzou golf team players as well as current and ex mini and PGA tour players. To play tournament golf with the best players in the world, you have to be one of them. I'm very particular about my golf equipment. It may not be the newest or most expensive but it is fit for me. Which is far more important. I do test and upgrade when something proves it will benefit my game. An Indian with an arrow that he knows how to use is still going to win most of the time.
As far as shooting. I been doing it my whole life, just not in competition. I've built a custom savage to get me stated. I do enjoy it but at current I don't have enough time to get serious with a 2nd hobby. It may not be the top of the line but with less than 40 rounds down the pipe it's produced sub .5 MOA at 450. Can't wait until I actually get a load developed for it. A great aspect of shooting sports is that anyone can compete against the elite. And in the case of the Berger shoot newbies can win.
 
Ok ! I have played a lot of golf,and shot for 7 years seriously.There is a relationship between both in money!As I said earlier there are only so many scopes,rests,sand bags etc. you can buy and then you have come to the end of progress but at the top level it is about barrels!Given equal shooters the man with the best barrel will win.In golf there is only so much equipment improvements that can happen,but the difference in golf is!!!A scratch golfer on a course with a certain slope and course rating on a municipal course most likely is fighting an up hill battle against a guy with money belonging to a private club with a course twice as hard.That is not an opinion it is an observation.
 
Another point convenience and opportunity have a role also.I,m 52 and still an open class racquetball player I had to run twice as far lift for more hours out of a small town than the competition in big cities because of convenience of open players to each other for training.This too applies to shooting and golf.There are many good shots that can,t get to the big matches because of time and money.
 
This thread is a pretty good read, interesting to see the different takes on this subject.

You know guys the shooting sports (any of them) are not a success only endeavor. There will always be more losers than winners that is just the way things are. Nobody with any sense ever said life was fair, and if someone told you it was the were lying. I guess we could do the Politically Correct thing like the do in Tee Ball and hand out a trophy to every one "Before" the shoot so that no one will get there feelings hurt. Yea I wonder how that will work? Probably like one of those lead balloons.

There are also some folks with money enough to buy or do anything they want to. Thank God for that maybe one of us poor guys will get "There" one day. I certainly don't have an unlimited budget, but I do shoot a Custom Rig, have a very nice Kowa spotting scope, great front rest, two of them actually one for F-Open and another for Benchrest. My rests alone are two of my most prized possission's because they were built for me by a friend my best friend he is a regular poster here on this board and builds in my opinion the best rests there, the making of friends like Bob is reason enough to pay the price of admission, . He is Bob Pastor the "Viper".

Several of the posters on this thread make reference to "doing the work". When I read that I have to ask myself how many understand, really understand what they are saying? I for one have never ever had the raw talent that some seem to have. I have to work and work real hard to get to that competitive place. I have always been able to do that work.

It takes good equipment no doubt about that. Doesn't mean you have to break the bank. There are more ways than one around that barn. There is the money way were you just lay it down in hundred dollar bills and they hand you a match ready rig ready to go slay the dragon. Then there is another way develop a good working relationship with a proper Match Quality Smith, ask questions do the research yourself and then smartly gather the components and have him build it for you. It is still going to take some of those hundred dollar bills but not near as many that way.

Now you are ready to start the work. A lot of folks think if they shoot a match a month they should be improving right along. It just don't work that way for anyone other than those Natural Talent guys. It takes a lot of rounds down range to come close to winning a match for most of us. I shoot a lot I also have had pretty quick success in my Match Shooting.

There is so much you have to learn. One of the first things is learning the rifle itself, I am a firm believer that it takes at least 500 maybe even a 1,000 bullets down the bore before you even have a clue as to what is going on with the rifle. Some of the things you need to know are what is happening with me and the rifle right at the moment of trigger break. Am I doing the same thing each and every shot? It takes bullets and lots of them to learn these things-----Unless you just want to go and shoot matchs only and then piss and moan about how unfair it is that Sam has that $6,000 dollar rifle and if I had me one of them I could be winning to. Ole Sam if he is winning is out doing the work.

Can't afford to shoot that much? Shooting some caliber with a barrel life of 900 or a 1000 rounds? There are ways around those problems, for me the lights came on when I read and heard about the 30BR. Barrel life of 6,000 + rounds I know personally of one 30BR with over 8,000 rounds that is still winning VFS match's all of the time. I bought me a 17 twist 30 caliber Barrel and that the best money I have ever spent. When it comes to just plain old trigger time screw that dude on and go and shoot it. You don't have to have match quality bullets for this either, you are shooting it on your match rifle same trigger, same stock, , same scope, same everything it is the deal for me.

There are more ways than just complaining about what some body else is shooting. I shoot or at least try too, three times a week. I like to shoot somewhere around what I would shoot in a match bullet wise, but usually shoot around 50 or so at each session. That's 150 a week or 600 a month just for practice. Add to that I shoot 3 match's a month as well, that's a lot of shooting. Even with all of that work I walk away more times than I care to count with the only thing I won is the smile on my face. For me that is enough.....

Roland
 
Come out and shoot the tactical matches like Precision Rifle Series.

While not many do, you can compete with a savage 12 LRP and a Viper PST and win if you got the logistics and want to.

There's a lot of gear superiority even in the tactical game, but it is where a guy can get started cheap and have a chance and a ton of fun.

I shoot in Oklahoma Precision Practical Shooters and there are clubs in AZ, CA, TX, FL, GA, and probably everywhere if you look.

It can get depressing when you just buy a house, just married, trying to get settled into a career, AND IT SEEMS EVERYONE ELSE HAS THE RIFLE YOUVE BEEN DREAMING OF FOR 10 YEARS ! :'(

But then you remind yourself how in tactical comps, it really comes down to having a decent barrel, a decent scope, a pretty good load, and a lot of hard work.

I want to shoot Palma so bad, but there's no regular matches near me and I can't swing a full blown Palma rifle at the moment. The gear game can weigh in on you lol.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.precisionrifleseries.com%2F&ei=n-9VU8jjLOnD2wX3_4GYDA&usg=AFQjCNHlPCbnVbC1css8gtcJdUKVaKvSFg&sig2=8oZbPWUrqPptQVRlgg0ZBQ
 
Hombre0321 said:
This thread is a pretty good read, interesting to see the different takes on this subject.

You know guys the shooting sports (any of them) are not a success only endeavor. There will always be more losers than winners that is just the way things are. Nobody with any sense ever said life was fair, and if someone told you it was the were lying. I guess we could do the Politically Correct thing like the do in Tee Ball and hand out a trophy to every one "Before" the shoot so that no one will get there feelings hurt. Yea I wonder how that will work? Probably like one of those lead balloons.

There are also some folks with money enough to buy or do anything they want to. Thank God for that maybe one of us poor guys will get "There" one day. I certainly don't have an unlimited budget, but I do shoot a Custom Rig, have a very nice Kowa spotting scope, great front rest, two of them actually one for F-Open and another for Benchrest. My rests alone are two of my most prized possission's because they were built for me by a friend my best friend he is a regular poster here on this board and builds in my opinion the best rests there, the making of friends like Bob is reason enough to pay the price of admission, . He is Bob Pastor the "Viper".

Several of the posters on this thread make reference to "doing the work". When I read that I have to ask myself how many understand, really understand what they are saying? I for one have never ever had the raw talent that some seem to have. I have to work and work real hard to get to that competitive place. I have always been able to do that work.

It takes good equipment no doubt about that. Doesn't mean you have to break the bank. There are more ways than one around that barn. There is the money way were you just lay it down in hundred dollar bills and they hand you a match ready rig ready to go slay the dragon. Then there is another way develop a good working relationship with a proper Match Quality Smith, ask questions do the research yourself and then smartly gather the components and have him build it for you. It is still going to take some of those hundred dollar bills but not near as many that way.

Now you are ready to start the work. A lot of folks think if they shoot a match a month they should be improving right along. It just don't work that way for anyone other than those Natural Talent guys. It takes a lot of rounds down range to come close to winning a match for most of us. I shoot a lot I also have had pretty quick success in my Match Shooting.

There is so much you have to learn. One of the first things is learning the rifle itself, I am a firm believer that it takes at least 500 maybe even a 1,000 bullets down the bore before you even have a clue as to what is going on with the rifle. Some of the things you need to know are what is happening with me and the rifle right at the moment of trigger break. Am I doing the same thing each and every shot? It takes bullets and lots of them to learn these things-----Unless you just want to go and shoot matchs only and then piss and moan about how unfair it is that Sam has that $6,000 dollar rifle and if I had me one of them I could be winning to. Ole Sam if he is winning is out doing the work.

Can't afford to shoot that much? Shooting some caliber with a barrel life of 900 or a 1000 rounds? There are ways around those problems, for me the lights came on when I read and heard about the 30BR. Barrel life of 6,000 + rounds I know personally of one 30BR with over 8,000 rounds that is still winning VFS match's all of the time. I bought me a 17 twist 30 caliber Barrel and that the best money I have ever spent. When it comes to just plain old trigger time screw that dude on and go and shoot it. You don't have to have match quality bullets for this either, you are shooting it on your match rifle same trigger, same stock, , same scope, same everything it is the deal for me.

There are more ways than just complaining about what some body else is shooting. I shoot or at least try too, three times a week. I like to shoot somewhere around what I would shoot in a match bullet wise, but usually shoot around 50 or so at each session. That's 150 a week or 600 a month just for practice. Add to that I shoot 3 match's a month as well, that's a lot of shooting. Even with all of that work I walk away more times than I care to count with the only thing I won is the smile on my face. For me that is enough.....

Roland


Good post, Roland.


It's mostly about bullets, barrels and hard work. Many of the most serious of shooters show up at matches with guns that some people would be embarrassed to shoot....but the stuff that matters is in there. Pretty is, as pretty does.
I compete on a much smaller budget than many that I shoot with, but remain competitive. I shoot a good gun that I call "Old Ugly". It's been a good shooter with several different barrels and calibers. I never feel out gunned with it.
When I was shooting at my best, a few years ago, I attribute it completely to trigger time. I shot practically every day, and it paid off.
It was a good used rifle that I re-barrelled myself, shooting off of a Shadetree top and a Caldwell base. I ALWAYS set up wind flags when I shoot. Shooting without them is a waste of time and components. Not only do you fail to properly assess your equipment, but you miss out on the opportunity to gain knowledge on the single most important part of the BR game...reading the wind.
I'm still gradually improving my shooting equipment over time. I have better flags, a Farley,tuner and some other useful things that make things better and easier, but guess what....I'm not shooting as well as when I had..no, MADE the time to practice more often.
I plan to paint the stock on "old Ugly" pretty soon, to spruce her up a bit, but I'd still rather win ugly than lose pretty. I better get to work.---Mike
 
So I did not read every post in this thread... but it seems to me that you can certainly shoot highpower service rifle or smallbore position matches, and it's not about an equipment race. Yes, you need a competent gun, and they cost a couple of grand. but I would bet that you could take a Service Rifle from almost any of the guys on the line at your local match, hand the rifle and the ammo to Julia Watson, and she'd win the match. Same thing for smallbore. More about practice and skill then equipment and ammo. My 2 cents.
 
What most seem to miss, is getting the most out of what you have. Not the cost of what you have. It takes a lot of work to evaluate every aspect of building and loading for a gun capable of winning. Then you have to make it happen, it's a triad and all the little ducks have to be in a row….. jim
 
I am a younger guy especially in the benchrest world(30) but I have a couple of customs and all the nice stuff. But we have a few younger guys, we have probably 4-5 guys that are under 35. But we work hard and put all the money we make into buying what we think makes a difference.

The reason you're not seeing the younger guys, is that they just aren't brought up the same anymore. Nobody wants to work hard and make money. I work for our family business of pipeline construction and have been doing it for 15 years and up till recently we had pretty good guys. Now we can't get guys that are under 50 that wanna work. These young kids will show up with their girly hands and not know how to run a shovel but will want to run equipment. Being like that isn't good for sort of competitive sports. And shooting sports isn't for the faint of heart.

Well I'm not as good as Jim or Matt, I work my butt off finding the right load and getting all the trigger time I can so I can be at their level one day.

I'm not sure if any of this stuff makes any sense, while I was trying to write it all my mind was going in about 15 directions.
 
Hoier said:
I am a younger guy especially in the benchrest world(30) but I have a couple of customs and all the nice stuff. But we have a few younger guys, we have probably 4-5 guys that are under 35. But we work hard and put all the money we make into buying what we think makes a difference.

The reason you're not seeing the younger guys, is that they just aren't brought up the same anymore. Nobody wants to work hard and make money. I work for our family business of pipeline construction and have been doing it for 15 years and up till recently we had pretty good guys. Now we can't get guys that are under 50 that wanna work. These young kids will show up with their girly hands and not know how to run a shovel but will want to run equipment. Being like that isn't good for sort of competitive sports. And shooting sports isn't for the faint of heart.

Well I'm not as good as Jim or Matt, I work my butt off finding the right load and getting all the trigger time I can so I can be at their level one day.

I'm not sure if any of this stuff makes any sense, while I was trying to write it all my mind was going in about 15 directions.

Hoier, If I lived out that way I would throw an application your way.. I have only worked outdoors but I don't think it will make me out perform Matt or Jim..


Ray
 
zfastmalibu said:
Mark Walker in TX said:
Anyone in this thread own a boat?

Anyone ever buy snow skiing equipment?

How about guitars and amps?

Maybe golf clubs?

You think any of the above hold their value any better than gun stuff?

So true, I think this is one of the cheapest hobbies there is. When your done you can sell your equipment and probably get what you paid if you've had it for a few years. I see NF Br scopes selling used for about $50-100 less than I paid new. I thought about upgrading my bow this year untill I found out its worth about 10% of what I have into it.

I can vouch you're way off on this. I got out of competing some 6-8 yrs ago I suppose I sold everything I had except for my scales and few tools. I just started back into it last year and building a new rifle. The cost of getting back in compared to what I had and sold don't come close. Some items have gone up as much as 50% if not more mostly some is around the 30% increase range. Then there's the saga of finding powder bullets primers and brass. Custom bullets are thru the roof right now compared to back when I use to shoot. Now there are 1000.00 rests 3000.00 scopes stocks that cost a grand and up. Let's not talk about the year long wait to even get a rifle built from a gunsmith. So I have call ya on the cost to sell to buying.
 
JamesnTN said:
zfastmalibu said:
Mark Walker in TX said:
Anyone in this thread own a boat?

Anyone ever buy snow skiing equipment?

How about guitars and amps?

Maybe golf clubs?

You think any of the above hold their value any better than gun stuff?

So true, I think this is one of the cheapest hobbies there is. When your done you can sell your equipment and probably get what you paid if you've had it for a few years. I see NF Br scopes selling used for about $50-100 less than I paid new. I thought about upgrading my bow this year untill I found out its worth about 10% of what I have into it.

I can vouch you're way off on this. I got out of competing some 6-8 yrs ago I suppose I sold everything I had except for my scales and few tools. I just started back into it last year and building a new rifle. The cost of getting back in compared to what I had and sold don't come close. Some items have gone up as much as 50% if not more mostly some is around the 30% increase range. Then there's the saga of finding powder bullets primers and brass. Custom bullets are thru the roof right now compared to back when I use to shoot. Now there are 1000.00 rests 3000.00 scopes stocks that cost a grand and up. Let's not talk about the year long wait to even get a rifle built from a gunsmith. So I have call ya on the cost to sell to buying.

I think you missed his point.
If you say spend 6K putting a complete rig together right now (USED GUN) and shoot for a year then sell it all on average you can get back around 85% of your money and in some cases BR scope 90% so comparing it to other sports or hobbies it has the highest return value by a mile thus making it one of the cheapest hobbies you can have.
-I have bought 15K worth of guitars and instruments in the last year would be lucky to get 7-8K back if I sold them used
-I have put 2K in my fun car this year and will never get any return on that
 
Hoier said:
I am a younger guy especially in the benchrest world(30) but I have a couple of customs and all the nice stuff. But we have a few younger guys, we have probably 4-5 guys that are under 35. But we work hard and put all the money we make into buying what we think makes a difference.

The reason you're not seeing the younger guys, is that they just aren't brought up the same anymore. Nobody wants to work hard and make money. I work for our family business of pipeline construction and have been doing it for 15 years and up till recently we had pretty good guys. Now we can't get guys that are under 50 that wanna work. These young kids will show up with their girly hands and not know how to run a shovel but will want to run equipment. Being like that isn't good for sort of competitive sports. And shooting sports isn't for the faint of heart.

Well I'm not as good as Jim or Matt, I work my butt off finding the right load and getting all the trigger time I can so I can be at their level one day.

I'm not sure if any of this stuff makes any sense, while I was trying to write it all my mind was going in about 15 directions.

Good post, I'm in the same boat, just turned 30. Been in a mechanic 13 years, I don't make much. Its called managing your money.
 
I sure did not pay 1000 for a rest but i did spend about 500. i set the records with a used NF. scope that went back to NF. to get checked. I did pay the price for an action You can get a good stock for under 500 if you do the work. I guess you could call me a barrel junky, can't never have enough of those. Each piece i added along the way showed improvement,some it was a waste time. I still use a powder measure i got from Carl Baker over twenty years ago. A used Kennedy box that had a bunch of miles on it, a GD 503 was about 900 but it was money well spent. I came a long way and i'm about at the end of the road but it was money well spent because the memories are priceless….. James O'Hara
 
If I had to do everything I have done with firearms since 1970,I would have bought better stuff and got rid of the junk.Now I have a load of rifles I am afraid to go out of the house with due to our laws.If I had got into benchrest in my 20's it would have been a better investment of time and money.Right now I have 3 good guns and I am blessed to have what I have.Most of my stuff is used but thats the way it goes being disabled to a point.But I am not going to quit till the mortician puts the pennys on my eyes.I will try to compete with what I have and be proud of it.
 
Well James, lemme quote you here: "The cost of getting back in compared to what I had and sold don't come close. Some items have gone up as much as 50% if not more mostly some is around the 30% increase range. Then there's the saga of finding powder bullets primers and brass."

The point is you sold 6-8 years ago at a given % of what you paid for it -- BEFORE that. I think that was the sense of what a previous poster was saying. You paid X and sold for either X minus a bit or broke even on some items or maybe made a few bux here and there.

The cost nowadays reflects inflation over the last 6-8 years. You're starting over as you said. You also "mentioned" elsewhere previously that you rcvd an order from Hodgdon around 600 lbs worth. It may/may not be in the flavors you most desired but you are waaaay ahead of the rest of us that may be branching out into new chamberings and twists that we weren't prepared to load for. Or should that be "for which to load."

I've been introduced to the RC boat hobby of late (employer has me making parts for those things). Those guys roll up with their tagalong trailers with the workbench, wall racks filled with boats for the umpteen different classes etc etc. They can pour a lot of $ into one - like anything else. That is almost an instant 50% redux if you want to sell used. Like a race car maybe.

All in all, if it's fun, do it to have fun. Some need to have their egos stroked and aren't happy if it isn't happening. Me? I have a competitive streak, play hard and fair and hope it is a good time. If it isn't I spend my time elsewhere. Too many things to see, do, learn to get stuck in something that is frustrating. That's why I never pursued golf.....it frustrated me early on and just didn't get the kick out of it. I frustrate myself in shooting but get enough enjoyment that I've chosen to continue.
 
TAJ45 said:
Well James, lemme quote you here: "The cost of getting back in compared to what I had and sold don't come close. Some items have gone up as much as 50% if not more mostly some is around the 30% increase range. Then there's the saga of finding powder bullets primers and brass."

The point is you sold 6-8 years ago at a given % of what you paid for it -- BEFORE that. I think that was the sense of what a previous poster was saying. You paid X and sold for either X minus a bit or broke even on some items or maybe made a few bux here and there.

The cost nowadays reflects inflation over the last 6-8 years. You're starting over as you said. You also "mentioned" elsewhere previously that you rcvd an order from Hodgdon around 600 lbs worth. It may/may not be in the flavors you most desired but you are waaaay ahead of the rest of us that may be branching out into new chamberings and twists that we weren't prepared to load for. Or should that be "for which to load."

I've been introduced to the RC boat hobby of late (employer has me making parts for those things). Those guys roll up with their tagalong trailers with the workbench, wall racks filled with boats for the umpteen different classes etc etc. They can pour a lot of $ into one - like anything else. That is almost an instant 50% redux if you want to sell used. Like a race car maybe.

All in all, if it's fun, do it to have fun. Some need to have their egos stroked and aren't happy if it isn't happening. Me? I have a competitive streak, play hard and fair and hope it is a good time. If it isn't I spend my time elsewhere. Too many things to see, do, learn to get stuck in something that is frustrating. That's why I never pursued golf.....it frustrated me early on and just didn't get the kick out of it. I frustrate myself in shooting but get enough enjoyment that I've chosen to continue.

Gosh I remember those rc days I use to compete in as well. Ran 5 classes myself and went thru 3-4 gallons of fuel on a race weekend from testing and getting dialed in the day before and racing. My twin alone would eat up 2 gallons alone. Man what fun I had back then nothing like hearing a pair of twin 90's fire up and be in tune with one another. I have say that's probably more expensive hobby than shooting. Whew glad I got that one out of my blood. But then I picked up photography and we won't go there on investment I've made just to take a picture of birds or wildlife.

As for making money, well I'm one of those guys who spends a dollar and it costs me 10.00 I doubt I've ever made any money off selling my equipment but I sure wish I knew then what I do now on the cost to start over.
 
You want an expensive hobby, try drag racing. I sold my car and trailer for a little over half what I had in the engine alone. :(
 

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