A few years back was setting up a lab radar that a friend bought and was showing him how to use it. I had been testing it with a few different rifles before he got there. While he was there i shot one of my 223. I had never chronograph the loads for this rifle, only loaded based on what target showed me worked. To my surprise i had an es of 3fps spread on a 5 shot test. I thought that was pretty good. Factory ruger m77 mk2 varmint/target model. Lc brass, 50gr nosler ballistic tip varmint with w748 26.5gr charge. Shoots very well at 525 yards also. I love that rifle.
Getting the ES/SD down on .223s
- Thread starter Gunracer
- Start date
-
- Tags
- .223 es/sd
I just came across this discussion on SH
Molon seems to like N140 but that is all I know about his recipe
Post in thread 'StaBall Match Testing - 77gr Reloads, Chasing mk262' https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...r-reloads-chasing-mk262.7164511/post-10830424
Molon seems to like N140 but that is all I know about his recipe
Post in thread 'StaBall Match Testing - 77gr Reloads, Chasing mk262' https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...r-reloads-chasing-mk262.7164511/post-10830424
dusterdave173
Silver $$ Contributor
I have been able to get crazy low SD / ES with lighter bullets and N133--I shoot the 53g Vmax with it and get single digits easy---I had several 5 shot strings with a 2!
I have not tried heavier bullets and n133 may not the choice for those at all but with the light stuff it is brilliant
Overall I have had amazing results with VV powders--I am hooked on them
Usually with light bullets I can get under 15
have not tried heavier
I have not tried heavier bullets and n133 may not the choice for those at all but with the light stuff it is brilliant
Overall I have had amazing results with VV powders--I am hooked on them
Usually with light bullets I can get under 15
have not tried heavier
Attachments
Last edited:
jepp2
Gold $$ Contributor
Generally I get ES near 100 with most powders. But Alliant AR Comp give me considerable lower ES & SD. Much lower than any other powder I've used.
I also struggled with high ES and SD in 223. My best results came from switching to CFE223. My belief is that the case is so small that even a kernel or 2 of extruded such as Varget ,RL15, or 4895 may be enough to alter the results.
I also neck turn. Everything. Neck tension is harder to get nailed down with small calibers but it is do-able and I recommend it.
I also have compressed loads with extruded. This just doesn't happen with ball powder.
I have not tried magnum primers. So far BR4's have given me what I am after, but I am intrigued. I will have to give it a try.
Good luck!
I also neck turn. Everything. Neck tension is harder to get nailed down with small calibers but it is do-able and I recommend it.
I also have compressed loads with extruded. This just doesn't happen with ball powder.
I have not tried magnum primers. So far BR4's have given me what I am after, but I am intrigued. I will have to give it a try.
Good luck!
Glad I found this thread, and see others feel my pain. I compete in local PRS matches with a 26" 223 using SW Precision powder, cci 400 primers, and 88 gr eldm bullets all in Lapua brass. My es and sd are also not consistently where I want them. I sometimes scratch my head and wonder how many points am I giving away past 700 by choosing to the shoot the 223. I have this internal battle on switching to a 6br or variant like the 6 dasher.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Here is a little advice by way of looking at this differently....
Learning PRS first is okay, but consider some standard target game like sling or F-Class. It helps teach gun handling and loading against a standardized target and standardized distance. The experience will apply to PRS.
When we are young and plunge into shooting at distance, we will fall back on different things as individuals and this is based on our exposure. Say for example student 1 comes from a family and network of folks who shoot competitively all the time at 600 and 1000. Student 2 was raised in a vacuum without shooters to guide them.
Then student 1 will have some insight before they even lay down on their first attempt. They will have guidance from family and friends that cut them to the chase of the current state of the art such that they will get up to speed efficiently as possible without wasting effort or cluttering their safe with guns that don't work well for them.
Next, we consider student 2 who is isolated and has no family or expert friends to guide them into their new interest. There is a variety of outcomes with this student that range from as good as student 1 to so much frustration that they quit and have a safe full of mediocre rigs and calibers that they sell off. Let's try and help student 2 for a moment since the vast majority of them tend to quit in frustration.
The internet is not as efficient at teaching Mid Range or Long Range shooting as one would hope. It is full of as much really bad information as it is good information.
So, rather than take my word for it, or the words of anyone else you don't know personally....
I would recommend you visit a well attended MR and LR match at the best club you can find. Walk the line and study. Watch the results of the match and see what and who is High Master and who is winning.
Study what they choose to shoot and their equipment. Remember that some of these folks will use a different gun in different winds, i.e., they will generally run a 7mm variant of a 284 WIN or larger at 1000 over running a 6mm on windy days, but on calm days they will run a 6 BR or variant (Dasher, BRA, etc.). At least that would represent the vast majority of national and international matches up until lately. A new kid on the block is a necked up 6.5 PRC brought up to 7mm and called a 7 PRCW. Most are throwing 180 grain Berger Hybrids using RE-16 or VV555. You have to master the recoil of this 7 PRCW compared to a 6 BR.
I am not trying to talk you out of using a 223 or 6 BR, just trying to save you from extra steps if possible. You can certainly spend some time getting better at 300 - 600 while using 223 and 6 BR before you worry about 1000, and give yourself some time to absorb what the fast crowd is using.
I do recommend a heavy match bolt 223 rig for every rookie who wants to shoot sling or F-Class. They will learn a lot for what they spend and the rig will become an heirloom to be held and passed on. Same for a decent 6 BR, it just costs more per shot, and we want rookies to shoot as much as they can afford. Get to at least 95% (Master) at 300 and then go to 600. Crawl, walk, run and you will get there if you give yourself a chance to learn wind in steps. Try to jump straight to 1000 on your own, and it will risk costing more and getting frustrated. Join a club that competes and you will get there sooner and cheaper.
Again, don't take my word for it. Study the big matches where the shooters volunteer their equipment information, or better yet plan to attend in person and introduce yourself. You will get adopted if you are polite and honest.
Hope that is helpful. YMMV
Why is it typically so hard to get low ES/SD in a 223? You'd think being a small case it wouldn't be all that difficult?
I'm about to find out I guess. I just built a long range 223 Wylde trainer on a Rem 700, Greyboe Renegade M5, Bartlein 28" Heavy Varmint 8 twist, custom throated at 2.510" for the 75g ELDMs and using H4985/IMR4895/N540 powder, Lapua brass and I have Rem 7.5s, CCI BR4s, and CCI 450s to try. Leupold MK4 6.5-20x Rifle weighs 15# ready to go. Will be shooting 1K regularly, and even stretch it out to 1200 yards on occasion just to see how it does...
Barrel only has 85 rounds down it, so just about broke in. Waiting on my bolt to get back from Carlsbad as it's being bushed, since it's cratering and piercing primers. And waiting on my Forster Ultra Micrometer seater die as well.
Once I get everything back, I'm going to start getting serious with load development at 300 yards. As of now it's taking a good liking to N540 at around 2975-3000fps according to my recent ladder testing.
A few 3 shot groups with H4895 and IMR4895 were 1.5-2" at 300 yards with 2 around 1/2-3/4" and the 1 flyer. Seating depth is my guess there. ES on both was right at the 30fps mark.
I don't always get hung up on numbers myself these days much anymore. I let the targets downrange tell the story, that's really the only thing I care about anymore.
Keep ya'll posted as it comes!!!
I'm about to find out I guess. I just built a long range 223 Wylde trainer on a Rem 700, Greyboe Renegade M5, Bartlein 28" Heavy Varmint 8 twist, custom throated at 2.510" for the 75g ELDMs and using H4985/IMR4895/N540 powder, Lapua brass and I have Rem 7.5s, CCI BR4s, and CCI 450s to try. Leupold MK4 6.5-20x Rifle weighs 15# ready to go. Will be shooting 1K regularly, and even stretch it out to 1200 yards on occasion just to see how it does...
Barrel only has 85 rounds down it, so just about broke in. Waiting on my bolt to get back from Carlsbad as it's being bushed, since it's cratering and piercing primers. And waiting on my Forster Ultra Micrometer seater die as well.
Once I get everything back, I'm going to start getting serious with load development at 300 yards. As of now it's taking a good liking to N540 at around 2975-3000fps according to my recent ladder testing.
A few 3 shot groups with H4895 and IMR4895 were 1.5-2" at 300 yards with 2 around 1/2-3/4" and the 1 flyer. Seating depth is my guess there. ES on both was right at the 30fps mark.
I don't always get hung up on numbers myself these days much anymore. I let the targets downrange tell the story, that's really the only thing I care about anymore.
Keep ya'll posted as it comes!!!
Last edited:
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Seems the smaller the case, the higher the level of improvement in SD's by turning those necks. Like others, I use Lake City over Lapua and go crazy on brass prep. If one reams the flash holes, they will also likely see a difference. I don't do that on a lot of larger cases - but once done and seeing the varying diameter of the holes - it is hard to not continue doing it. It also seems to matter more on the .223 with those long, skinny cases.
The small case IS the problem, in my opinion anyway. It's relatively tall for it's diameter, and the reduced volume makes every little thing matter more than it does in a larger case. It's harder to get consistent combustion in a long, narrow tube than it is in a short, fat, square-ish one.
If you look at YouTube, have a watch of the video from Winning in The Wind with Keith Glasscock about loading with a beam scale vs a good electronic one. One of the things he points out is that smaller cases like the 223 are more prone to being affected by variations in each of the components.
Working from my memory on the subject, he says subtle differences in primer, case volume, neck tension, and powder charge are the main culprits.
Even if you get the powder charge bang on the money every time, that degree of precision can get lost in the "noise" from variations in the others. If the extremes of the tolerances in each item cancel each other (hot primer and larger case volume as an example), you get good results. If they stack, you don't.
You won't lose any ground by being as precise as you can with weighing powder, of course, it just may not be enough in itself.
You've got a couple things going for you starting out, those being the 28" barrel and the longer throat for the Wylde chamber. Both will help. One is getting more powder in the case (longer throat), the other making the most of the speed you'll get (barrel length).
I tried the ELD-M 75's in my 8 twist Tikka for a while, with mixed results. Your groups are better than mine were, but I had odd flyers too. The Hornady box now says they're better in a 7 twist barrel, when I bought them I think they said an 8 twist was minimum.
I've had better results with the 80.5 Berger Fullbore bullets at long range, and I'm trying the Sierra 80 Match Kings this season. I believe both are on the edge of what will work in an 8 twist barrel.
I shoot to 800m with the 223, I've not tried it at 1000 yards or further. I'm limited by the need to keep things supersonic at the target (Shotmarker scoring), and the SAAMI-spec chamber in the rifle I have. A longer throat would help with getting more powder in the case and keeping pressure down.
These are just my thoughts on what I'm experiencing with the 223, I'm not alone from some of the comments in this thread though.
I personally use the K&M tools for this. Just part of what I do and since it'saone and done why not. Having done piles of brass with this tool, I've noticed enough LC cases that will be grabby when the cutter goes into the flash hole. Some case will have very little brass cut and the grabby ones will have small shards cut out. I chuck my tool into my country lathe so I can have repeatable results.
If you true some cases you may as well true all cases since you'll just be adding another variable if you don't.
Very good info! Thank you!
I tried the 80g ELDMs in a few ladders, but you could definitely tell the rifle or the 8 twist preferred the 75s, plus I was only getting 2850fps with them, versus 3000-3050 with the 75s. So I sold them and bought more 75s.
I weigh all my precision loads on a balance beam, so that's good to hear. I also have 3 different primers to choose from, and I can test some different neck tensions. It's all part of the fun.
I've been wanting a fast twist 223 trainer for quite a while now, so I'm pretty stoked to get it up and running. It's going to be the rifle I shoot 50x more than my 6 creed and 7-300 win mag for the obvious reasons. I have a private 1400 yard range 15 minutes from my house, so I'm definitely going to see what the little 223 is capable of.
Ballistic wise, a 75g ELDM at 3000-3050 isn't a whole lot further off then my 6 creed with a 108g ELDM at 3000fps. Few clicks here and there for drop and windage, but nothing real crazy. On a nice calm day I think it should do really well out to 1K, maybe even 1200 as some guys on the hide are saying and having luck with the 75s at that range. We will see anyway.
The biggest current SD wrecker for me is the most recent batch of CCI #41s we have. Just terrible. SDs in the 30s are common place with those.
Oddly enough, I just set up the Harrell's and threw 4064 with CCI 41s and RMR 69 gr bullets. Shot a 12 round string with MIXED Brass and the SD was just under 13. You never know.
Oddly enough, I just set up the Harrell's and threw 4064 with CCI 41s and RMR 69 gr bullets. Shot a 12 round string with MIXED Brass and the SD was just under 13. You never know.
When looking at the 223 as a long range cartridge it helps to understand that it grew out of a varmint cartridge, the 222Rem and was designed for a Maximum Effective Range of 460m/500yds. It was never envisioned as a 1000yd cartridge. Improvements in powders, bullets, and rifles have allowed the cartridge to be loaded and reasonably accurate to 1000yds.
As someone noted Kieth Glascock's take on the size of the cartridge being a large part of the issue. When you look at @SSchnd's 10 shot group with a 10SD and 26ES it shows that good results are obtainable. Can they be consistently done is another issue. Can you expect an ES in a large sample? Probably not. A true 10SD would likely see a ES on the order of 60. But isn't that part of the challange?
As someone noted Kieth Glascock's take on the size of the cartridge being a large part of the issue. When you look at @SSchnd's 10 shot group with a 10SD and 26ES it shows that good results are obtainable. Can they be consistently done is another issue. Can you expect an ES in a large sample? Probably not. A true 10SD would likely see a ES on the order of 60. But isn't that part of the challange?
SSchnd
Silver $$ Contributor
I agree better components and a willingness to try right
Sadly the first match this year 3 x 600 was on Shot Marker and no data other than the velocity was on the screen unlike my SMT. I have been chronoing the loads as I test and they are consistent in SD values 10 or below. I dropped down to 23.6 gr and it shoots a little bit better. We all know Etarget velocities may not be as accurate as MV data due to environmental factors.
I agree, I would like to see the data over a match. Ill have to pry the Xero from my buddies hands if he will let me and the MD will allow me to chrono on the line.
I am still struggling to master 300yds!!
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Good advice. I recall how much I learned from others at my first bench rest match. It would have been a long learning curve without those folks.
I should have done similar. I had to learn everything the hard way. But on the flip side I figured out which dogma was just not true.
I remember sitting on our High Power range thinking the 500m targets were a million miles away, and just amazed when I could hit one.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.