German Salazar's 30-06 reloads

[JThorsby]

I just finished the "The Rifleman's Journal" 3 part 30-06 reloading article for accurate reloading. I'm not a target shooter, but I like the 30-06.
The first rifle I ever shot was my father's Eddystone 30-06 - and I hit what I was shooting at!
He states in the article that he seats "0.020 into the lands" What does that mean? If it means 20 thousandths out from the lands - How do I find out?
I have 3 30-06's and I'm looking at getting a very accurate one made - not a target rifle but a very accurate rifle.
As long as I'm at this questioning - Can I get an accurate rifle on a Winchester (especially a M54) made? or Should I look to remington or Savage?
John

 

[Nodak7mm]

Re: German Silva's 30-06 reloads

Who is German Silva? Sounds like an interesting blog..

Rod

 

[watercam]

Re: German Silva's 30-06 reloads

German Salazar I believe.
I have two match rifles based upon Winchester push-feed actions that shoot 1/4 moa with handloads. John Whidden has won recent Long Range Championship titles with Win. actions as well. Definitely can be done!

 

[JThorsby]

Re: German Silva's 30-06 reloads

Yes Salazar - I read the whole thing and still got his name wrong. Silva is a marathon runner......a

 

[Laurie]

Re: German Silva's 30-06 reloads

All references to seating bullets into the lands or with so much jump to them start from ascertaining the cartridge OAL that sees the bullet lightly engaged.

There are several ways of doing this and several proprietary tools on the market, the main ones being from Hornady with its formerly Stoney-Point OAL gauge and Sinclair International with a rod and sliding/locking collars set-up. (look at Sinclair International's website and you can download the instructions for this tool.)

German Salazar does a basic article on using the Hornady tool in the Rifleman's Journal:

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/reloading-seating-depth.html

but there is lots of information in this forum and articles to be found off the main page on the subject.

Once you have a setting, it's wise to use callipers with a bullet comparator and appropriate calibre insert in it to measure the COAL from the case-head to the bullet shoulder rather than doing an overall length from case-head to the bullet tip as individual bullets out of the box can vary by several thou' in their lengths.

Generally, bullets are either seated to be well into the lands (OAL + 10, 15, 20 thou' over the lightly engaged reading) or making a 10 thou' or greater jump. This is to avoid the undesirable situation of one bullet marginally 'out' and the next round fired having the bullet marginally 'in' giving a different POI. This occurs because of variations between bullets and small tolerances in loading tools, loading procedures etc.

German surprised me by recommending that tangent ogive Sierras such as the 190gn MK are seated into the rifling as they are famed for their jump tolerance. this practice is more usually associated with secant ogive VLD form bullets that are very fussy about seating depths / jump. I've also see a recommendation on this forum to seat 0.30" Berger Hybrids into the lands in .308 Win match ammo saying it gives excellent results which contradicts Berger's reason for developing the 'Hybrid' - to give VLD level ballistic coefficients while being completely jump-tolerant.

 

[Nodak7mm]

Re: German Silva's 30-06 reloads

Yes Salazar - I read the whole thing and still got his name wrong. Silva is a marathon runner......a

;D

Prob the best shooting/reloading blog on the web today, at least that I can find. Glad you found it, there is lots of great reading to do there. Yup, German's got a thing for the venerable "ought six" and can back it up on the target too..

Rod

 

[jlow]

Be aware that anything seated either into the lands or with a short jump are rounds that are usually very long and will no longer fit in a mag – if you rifle has one.

The other thing is these technique are potentially associated with higher chamber pressure so even if you have a load that works with the bullets seated to mag length, you need to back off and start off low again to check for pressure signs…

 

[GermanS1]

John, glad you found the article useful. As Laurie mentioned, the Sierra 190 is very jump tolerant, so you might be happy with the accuracy at a more normal seating depth. My recommendation of 0.020" jam is based on long-range target shooting where little things matter more, but the difference may not be apparent at shorter distances or with a more standard type rifle. Seating depth, ultimately, is just another tuning tool.

 

[Laurie]

the Sierra 190 is very jump tolerant, so you might be happy with the accuracy at a more normal seating depth. My recommendation of 0.020" jam is based on long-range target shooting where little things matter more, but the difference may not be apparent at shorter distances or with a more standard type rifle. Seating depth, ultimately, is just another tuning tool.

German,

an interesting observation! I've also found recently that some barrels / chambers give their best (or in the case of a barrel I have on an F/TR rifle right now, only work at all) with bullets seated 'in'. I hadn't previously considered the practice for the SMKs. The other comment I saw elsewhere on the forum recently about seating Hybrids 'well in' made me think too. (So far, no luck with them as the aforementioned barrel just won't shoot them well at all.)

 

[Laurie]

I've just noticed on the recently added Bulletin feature on Bruce Duncan's .284 Win heavy gun that he's seating 180gn Bergers so they just 'kiss' too - it's obviously catching!!

 

[GermanS1]

Laurie, I went to the article as a result of your reference to it and also find the seating "just kissing" the lands to be interesting for a successful combination. It speaks highly of Berger's production quality that it's working.

One other point for newer reloaders to keep in mind is that jamming the bullet into the lands raises pressure by 3,000 psi to 5,000 psi over a jump, so loads should be backed down and re-tested when the seating depth is changed from a jump to a jam.

 

[louielouie]

I apologize for hijacking but this was intriguing:

...
One other point for newer reloaders to keep in mind is that jamming the bullet into the lands raises pressure by 3,000 psi to 5,000 psi over a jump, so loads should be backed down and re-tested when the seating depth is changed from a jump to a jam.

As I recall German, you were using strain gages when initially testing RL-17? Is this 3k to 5k psi pressure jump just from that testing or other testing? I ask because Quick Load recommends +7200 psi for all cartridges which really isn't that far off and probably is safer for those without the gages.

 

[Shynloco]

Can I get an accurate rifle on a Winchester (especially a M54) made? or Should I look to remington or Savage?
John

John,
Lots of neat responses and info by folks in the know. But to directly respond to the question you posed, I've found that the Savages have remarkable accuracy right out of the box. I have two of them, (1-6mm Benchrest Model and the other a Model 12 (223) VLP DBM model) both of which I use strictly for Benchrest shooting. And I shoot and reload strictly for fun and ultimate accuracy. Both perform extremely well with only bedding done and the trigger adjusted for a light pull. I know what goes into having a custom rifle made and the expense. So if you are using the rifle for hunting and not competition, I'd save the money and buy a Savage. Just my thoughts.

Alex

 

[JThorsby]

Thanks Alex,
That's what I want to do with it. Real accurate shooting and hunting. I've reloaded all my ammunition for many years
and decided I could use some of German's techniques; esp. powder, primers, and brass recommendations.
I don't mind carrying a 10 to 12 pound rifle though.
It's hard to find a heavy hunting rifle, everyone wants "featherweight'.
John

 

[GriffinPrime]

Hello German,
I also read your fabulous report about reloading 30-06 Part1,2,3.
Just one question remaining. After using .308 for several years I now want to 30-06 to exceed shooting up to 1000 yards.
Therefore I want to use 200 grs ore even larger bullets.
Now, would it give me an advantage to use a 30 inch barell with 1:10 twist compared to a 26 or 28 inch length with 1:11 twist?
What is the optimal barrel lengths to twist solution for constant use above 800 yards distance?

kind regards,
Ralph

 

[CJ6]

For a hunting rifle I'd rather not have a bullet set to "jam" lengths. Reason being if you have to eject a loaded chambered round the possibility of pulling the bullet out is high,then you have a mess of powder and a stuck bullet that needs to be dealt with.

 

[JarheadAZ]

Hi. German; long time no talk.

I recently gave up serious competition because of health issues in the household, both myself and the Bride. I still hunt and shoot for fun, with the occasional local club match. FWIW, my push feed M-70 .30-'06 took first place in the club's deer rifle shoot-off this past week. It also brought down a 130lb doe this past Autumn.

All my ammo also meets the usual limits for the Garand; I like mine too much to allow something too peppy to find its way into that particular chamber. I use Rem brass, CCI-200, and 48.1gr of iMR-4064 with either the 165SGK or 168SMK seated to the Garand's desired COAL.

There is another reason why I don't seat my bullets long anymore.

At 69, there's a higher probability that my rifles and handloaded ammunition could end up being bequeathed. For that reason, all my rifles and ammo now conform to SAAMI spec dimension-wise, so my heirs and assigns don't end up with anything that requires special caution. Considering the preceding paragraph, there's no reason for me to get more technically complex with my reloading.

Best to you and yours;

Greg Langelius

 

[riflewoman]

As long as I'm at this questioning - Can I get an accurate rifle on a Winchester (especially a M54) made? or Should I look to remington or Savage?
John

As one who has done it, you can get a very accurate rifle from a Winchester M54. That said, I would look for a Winchester M70 over the M54 if the primary focus was target shooting.

 

[johnfred1965]

German, are you retired from the Riflemans Journal or simply on hiatus? I've read everything up to 2012 and I'm jonesing for your clear concise explainations! I may even learn to shoot straight one of these days

 

[Heavy barrel]

It's doubtful you will get a response from German. This thread is several years old. German had some health issues that caused him to retire from shooting. I hear he is doing well now. We really miss German at the range.