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Gentlemen, I present... the ".220 REDLINE"

Case length‎: ‎2.035 in (51.7 mm) for 7mm SAUM

308 Win = Case length 2.015 (51.18 mm)

May or may not work in certain "short actions"

But that's really only one "aspect" of the whole ball of wax here-in the 12 pages of the thread.
 
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Case length‎: ‎2.035 in (51.7 mm) for 7mm SAUM

308 Win = Case length 2.015 (51.18 mm)

May or may not work in certain "short actions"

But that's really only one "aspect" of the whole ball of wax here-in the 12 pages of the thread.
Ya sounds like it all boils down to the bullet used. I run a 308 that I need to pull the bolt to remove a live round. Happens to be a heavy Berger and it needs a long action to run better using the bolt.
 
I'm not responding to anyone in particular just commenting.

I think this a cool project! I only wish my somewhat similar speedster project cartridges had lasted.

I suppose it's only a new barrel away from getting away from escaping either severe throat cracking and/or bullet failure from high speeds inside of 300 rounds but I wasn't into affording that second one which was basically another $600 for barrel chambering, etc.

Nevertheless I'm watching intently here. I hope for Fredo's success! Hopefully those slow powders are nicer to barrels.

Yep, I want to see what the affects of such high velocities coupled with these 22 cal bullet weights create - photo's.
 
I shoot a 22-6mm AI

Have for a long time

I have several 6mms and variants because I built my first few before I knew enough to have built them off of a .284.... but that’s where I’m at now....

27” Kreiger 1-8 twist

75 AMax
47.7 grains of Norma MRP

3,700 FPS with no pressure signs

Shoots very well. It is a lightening bolt of death on coyotes.

Maybe someone out there with some more experience than myself can support or explain why my thought wouldn’t work....

Could pressure be fought by using a 10 twist for the same build and using more speed to get the rpms necessary to stabilize?

I just don’t see why I can shoot The amax lights out with my 8 but yours doesn’t like them.... I think they just need to go faster.

The amax isn’t my favorite bullet for accuracy but when they run into a coyote angels play trumpets....

With 20.0+ more grains of case capacity I would just love to see the speed return to be a little more.

I think we can suck 4,100 out of this thing....

I don’t always load for speed.... but when I’m calling I don’t want to care if a coyote is at 315 yards or 440 yards.

Good read with a few exceptions haha
 
And try as I may....

I can’t hold my tongue.....

Ray.... no one cares that you have a different view. It’s accepted and even expected.

But give us an alternative to our ideas.

I would love to use a smaller case even than my 6AI to shoot heavy for caliber 22 bullets at warp speeds.... so I wish you were right...

But you aren’t.

You are bashing an idea without suggesting a better one.

Save your powder.... save your barrels....

We will continue to burn both for performance.

I have target rifles that I try to get fuel mileage out of. Because nothing is flat to 1000 yards so why even try....

In a real-time varmint rifle where my distance and situation can be unpredictable, then give me the performance. It will help with any error in judgement that I make.

So move on man.... unless youre about to post load data for a 22BR that shoots a 75grainer at 3725.

Jeez....
 
I shoot a 22-6mm AI

Have for a long time

I have several 6mms and variants because I built my first few before I knew enough to have built them off of a .284.... but that’s where I’m at now....

27” Kreiger 1-8 twist

75 AMax
47.7 grains of Norma MRP

3,700 FPS with no pressure signs

Shoots very well. It is a lightening bolt of death on coyotes.

Maybe someone out there with some more experience than myself can support or explain why my thought wouldn’t work....

Could pressure be fought by using a 10 twist for the same build and using more speed to get the rpms necessary to stabilize?

I just don’t see why I can shoot The amax lights out with my 8 but yours doesn’t like them.... I think they just need to go faster.

The amax isn’t my favorite bullet for accuracy but when they run into a coyote angels play trumpets....

With 20.0+ more grains of case capacity I would just love to see the speed return to be a little more.

I think we can suck 4,100 out of this thing....

I don’t always load for speed.... but when I’m calling I don’t want to care if a coyote is at 315 yards or 440 yards.

Good read with a few exceptions haha
In my opinion, the 10 twist won't stabilize the 75 amax no matter what speed you run it. This has been my experience. I'm sure someone will chime in and say they can with there's. No two barrels are identical but IMO, you'll not stabilize them. Maybe you will in a 9. My 9.125 with not stabilize the 75s at 3400
 
And try as I may....

I can’t hold my tongue.....

Ray.... no one cares that you have a different view. It’s accepted and even expected.

But give us an alternative to our ideas.

I would love to use a smaller case even than my 6AI to shoot heavy for caliber 22 bullets at warp speeds.... so I wish you were right...

But you aren’t.

You are bashing an idea without suggesting a better one.

Save your powder.... save your barrels....

We will continue to burn both for performance.

I have target rifles that I try to get fuel mileage out of. Because nothing is flat to 1000 yards so why even try....

In a real-time varmint rifle where my distance and situation can be unpredictable, then give me the performance. It will help with any error in judgement that I make.

So move on man.... unless youre about to post load data for a 22BR that shoots a 75grainer at 3725.

Jeez....
I like a 6mm better.. Far as move on man, it's your advice so

Ray
 
CTanM,
Will re-visit my thought process for the Redline, as it looks like you're asking some if the same question I wanted to answer, myself...

I have a 1:8 22-243AI that'll push a 75 about 100fps less than your 22-6mmAI. If you reference an ROM calculator, you'll see that, even at 3600, a 75 is spinning 324,000rpm. At your 3,700, it's at 333,000 rpm. I.e. That's ALOT to ask a bullet to endure and still fly/perform...

You speculation about dropping to a 1:10rpm launch a 75AMAX, I fear will not work. Given my AO near sea level, and the velocity capability of the REDLINE, even a 1:9 didn't work for the 75AMAX in this cold, dense air. Perhaps, an "out west" shooter in thinner, mountain air could spin a 75AMAX with a 1:9 REDLINE, or even a .22-6mmAI, but not here in my AO. That said, dropping even more twist to a 1:10 in hopes of stabilizing that same bullet might very well prove to be a fool's errand? Least I know it'd be so, for my AO...

As for Mr. Majestic' .22-284, IIRC it's a 1:8 with a 30" barrel pushing an 80 AMAX @ 3750. And via, RL-33. Please correct if inaccurate?

That is some SERIOUS performance! Mr. Majestic's setup was actually one of the 'measuring sticks' I've kept in mind to use against the REDLINE. Dunno how fast his .22-284 can push a 75, posssibly 3900+? I wouldn't doubt it, from a 30" barrel, but there again the RPM 'dilemma' factors back in...to the tune of 351,000 RPM...YIKES!

So, if the REDLINE can cover that, from a 1:9, with 3" LESS barrel length, then you can see how pleased I am with how my little baby is shaking out!

Please know, I'm not 'dissing' Mr. Maj, his .22-284, or any other cartridge. Just explaining that it isn't any wonder that a more capacious case pushes the same bullet, faster. It's the same logic that a 6.5SAUM outperforms a 6.5-284, a .300 Norma beats a .300 WinMag, a .17-204 beats a .17Remington, .22-250 beats a .223, etc.

Simply stated, given the constants of bullet and twist rate, the larger case always wins. I didn't make that up, it's just how it is. All I did when dreaming up my REDLINE was to apply that logic to the .224 caliber, and did it using components I already had. That said, I really don't give a 'floppy-flop' about who did what, when and why, in the past...other than to use that information as a gauge to compare against...

Back to twist/RPM. At a scorching 3950 fps (already established), a 75 from the 1:9 REDLINE is spinnin' 316,000 RPM, which is well below where my .22-243AI is churning from a 1:8. So, I have a good idea that the bullet is 'safe' at that RPM...

HOW IT REACTS ON GAME REMAINS TO BE SEEN! But, we will all have some indication of that whence the first groundhogs meet their demise...:)

LASTLY...
I did think about a .240 REDLINE, and already have reamer specs to make it. But, the reasons why I dropped to .224 are basically twofold:

1. .224 is PLENTY enough to kill coyotes, and quite capable on deer. This, I've proven myself, to my satisfaction...as "Any centerfire" is big game legal in my AO

2. G1 b.c. of a .224 caliber 75 JLK is .425
....G1 b.c. of a .243 caliber 75VMAX is .330

Given the same launch speed, it is common knowledge that the smaller caliber, longer bullet, with the higher b.c. is going to shoot flatter, buck wind better, and retain more energy downrange.

FACT.

Here's pic of a 75 JLK / .220 REDLINE, next to a .243 CATBIRD / 77 Lapua:
-----------------~71grains case capacity------------~70grains case capacity

YiPiGdv.jpg


Guess which one is faster??? :cool:
Guess which one has the .425 b.c., and which the .315 b.c. ??? :cool:

That's about as close I can get to comparing a .220 REDLINE to a .240 REDLINE, without actually building it. ;)

Does anyone else have something tangible/ comparable to reference?

If so...BY ALL MEANS, PLEASE SHARE!!!
 
Case length‎: ‎2.035 in (51.7 mm) for 7mm SAUM

308 Win = Case length 2.015 (51.18 mm)

May or may not work in certain "short actions"

But that's really only one "aspect" of the whole ball of wax here-in the 12 pages of the thread.

For ability to retain use of my SAUM dies, I trimmed the REDLINE back to 2.025"...same min as parent case...

As to fit/function in a short action, @ .224 caliber, that is a complete non-issue. I did my homework on freebore length, and happy right where it's at. My REDLINE with a 75 VLD is hard jam @<2.725. That allows for over .250" of mag length leeway...

Just sayin', ya can't load a 75 long enough to crowd a short action WSM/SAUM magazine, cuz the dang boolit won't even be in the neck anymore! That's why my freebore is what it is ;)

Same for my .22-243Win and .22-243AI. I spec-ed a 75 in the lands @ 2.760".

So, yeah...with regard to ANY .308, .284, or SAUM based .224, they'll all work just dandy in a short action. I just cheated the SA system by uppin' boltface to get more boiler room...;)

Look again at the REDLINE/ CATBIRD comparison pic, above. That gives ya a good idea of the case length you'll need from a .473 boltface in order to nearly match the capacity of the REDLINE. IIRC, those 77Lapuas are @ 3.230" OAL... waaay beyond short action constraints. That CATBIRD is a friggin BADAZZ, and it still don't allow the capacity of my REDLINE...

See why I cheated for using a SAUM parent case to make my .220 REDLINE? There just ain't no .473 boltface wildcat gonna touch it on a short action..
 
This thread has been a great read!
Any interest in testing the 65gr sierra gameking? I know it doesn't have the greatest b.c. but it's a bullet I've heard good things about for 'On game' performance . Keep up the great work and great documentation.... I just love it!
 
I wasn't going to post anymore on the thread but seeing how I'm quoted, I'll take the opportunity to, I'm sure I can endure any "rath" that may ensue from whom ever.

- I'd have done it in 6mm (If it was mine "to-do") - And still Could have went with a 1-9 twist 27" barrel - Shot bullets that have as high or in most cases higher B/C and still got a "screaming level" of velocity. - Most probably not 3900 or 4000 fps but respectable indeed & surely the barrel will also last longer.

-That's my 2 cent's - And for what it's worth, I've built a couple wildcats, but nothing as "radical" in design as a 22 caliber SAUM.

upload_2018-4-2_10-57-22.png

- Ron -
 
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Ron,
You won't incur "wrath" for sharing an opinion with some thought behind it. But, I'd simply direct you to the reasons I shared for choosing to neck down to .224, over staying up at .243 cal.

Based on what I've learned from my friend's 243CATBIRD shooting bullets in the weight range you shared, I felt going all the way to .224 would best it. IMHO, his best combo was a 70N-Btip in the low 3900s, but he likes to 'tinker'. Presently, he's shooting Bart's 68s with an accuracy load in the 3800s that shoots bugholes and just turns a coyote to mush. We all like what we like, no harm in that!

In truth, there's nothing "radical" about the .220 REDLINE, aside from the initial performance numbers it's producing. I sure didn't reinvent the wheel, rather just designed something that could use dies and brass I already had (SAUM stuff) in an attempt to best another wildcat I already shoot (.22-243AI). Nothing groundbreaking, and frankly I'm surprised I've haven't heard of someone building one, already?!?

Nothing "proprietary" about the REDLINE either. Sure, I coulda easily modified the shoulder angle or sum such to make it more unique, but I'm obviously not out to make a buck. Just tried to build a BADAZZ .224 hotrod that could be made/maintained with factory dies, and was relatively straightforward to load for. And I've outlined every single step in plain English, should anyone wanna do the same...

So far, the 'fun factor' for figuring out an 'unknown' has already been worth the effort! And the fact that the REDLINE is shaking out to absolutely destroy my beloved .22-243AI in velocity numbers is both sobering, and thrilling at the same time...

Will continue to share results, the good and the bad!
If this barrel torches out before winter, you're gonna hear about it. Like wise, you're gonna hear about every poor critter that falls prey to the REDLINE, along the way...:)
 
Ron,
You won't incur "wrath" for sharing an opinion with some thought behind it. But, I'd simply direct you to the reasons I shared for choosing to neck down to .224, over staying up at .243 cal.

Based on what I've learned from my friend's 243CATBIRD shooting bullets in the weight range you shared, I felt going all the way to .224 would best it. IMHO, his best combo was a 70N-Btip in the low 3900s, but he likes to 'tinker'. Presently, he's shooting Bart's 68s with an accuracy load in the 3800s that shoots bugholes and just turns a coyote to mush. We all like what we like, no harm in that!

In truth, there's nothing "radical" about the .220 REDLINE, aside from the initial performance numbers it's producing. I sure didn't reinvent the wheel, rather just designed something that could use dies and brass I already had (SAUM stuff) in an attempt to best another wildcat I already shoot (.22-243AI). Nothing groundbreaking, and frankly I'm surprised I've haven't heard of someone building one, already?!?

Nothing "proprietary" about the REDLINE either. Sure, I coulda easily modified the shoulder angle or sum such to make it more unique, but I'm obviously not out to make a buck. Just tried to build a BADAZZ .224 hotrod that could be made/maintained with factory dies, and was relatively straightforward to load for. And I've outlined every single step in plain English, should anyone wanna do the same...

So far, the 'fun factor' for figuring out an 'unknown' has already been worth the effort! And the fact that the REDLINE is shaking out to absolutely destroy my beloved .22-243AI in velocity numbers is both sobering, and thrilling at the same time...

Will continue to share results, the good and the bad!
If this barrel torches out before winter, you're gonna hear about it. Like wise, you're gonna hear about every poor critter that falls prey to the REDLINE, along the way...:)

I appreciate your candor and humility. Thanks for not naming it the Fredo.

;)

I am hoping that we can post a vid of Little P smushing a very long CNY fat ol pasture grizzly sometime this year.

Snert
 
Personally, I have truly enjoyed this process and thank you for your details throughout.

I can’t recall so I’ll ask, do you have the reamer in hand? I’m assuming JGS will make another if one wanted to order one?

Thanks again sir.
 
Fredo - All -

Howdy !

Homer Powley once wrote:

"...For best efficiency, a gun should use as much powder as it will hold.
The more powder, the higher the velocity ".
( Homer Powley - " The Powley Papers " Guns & Ammo 1974 Annual )

I've reviewed all of Fredo's posts. Sounds like he's taken Powley's comments to heart !

Fredo - I too believe in using high "load density ", when one can ( you mentioned a 98% figure ).

Go Fredo..... GO !


With regards,
357Mag
 
Personally, I have truly enjoyed this process and thank you for your details throughout.

I can’t recall so I’ll ask, do you have the reamer in hand? I’m assuming JGS will make another if one wanted to order one?

Thanks again sir.


Pulpit.....

I’m not rooting against Fredo....

But he’s been explicitly clear in why he went the way he did.

The only person who should ever build this, is someone who has SAUM stuff laying everywhere, and has grown bored with everything else.

I feel it necessary to urge someone who wants to build a hotrod fast twist .22 to NOT go this route, if it is their first or only wildcat. Or if it will be a primary varmint gun.

This cartridge is for the man who has everything..... so now he wants a .22 SAUM.

Not necessarily directed at Pulpit... your post just made me think to throw this out there.

Pulpit may be the man I speak of.

Just bringing this up in case the next average joe who has grown bored with a .22-250 wants to build something with some more horsepower. I don’t think this is where they should start.

This cartridge met a lot of criteria for FREDO.

A lot of criteria that may not matter to whoever is reading this.
 
Dry spell in the thread was due to waiting on the Micky handle!

Just got er in, and the 'swirly' is definitely grin worthy! Busted out the Dremel & Marinetex, and knocked out a quick bedding job...
Ouiq7nb.png


Next range trip will be to narrow down the 75 JLK/VLD & RL-33 combo to a working load. Wanna see the VLD in the mid 39s, and see if the JLK will do 4K???
 
Dry spell in the thread was due to waiting on the Micky handle!

Just got er in, and the 'swirly' is definitely grin worthy! Busted out the Dremel & Marinetex, and knocked out a quick bedding job...
Ouiq7nb.png


Next range trip will be to narrow down the 75 JLK/VLD & RL-33 combo to a working load. Wanna see the VLD in the mid 39s, and see if the JLK will do 4K???

Why is it red?

;)
 

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