Full length size or neck size

[LHSmith]

Using a full length die to "neck size" means that you are partially sizing the whole case unless the case has a high degree of taper there will be some contact with the body of the case.
I do a lot of work with metal and have for years. Cartridge brass is just 70% copper and 30% zinc. It age hardens and work hardens - like all brass. if you apply heat it softens. The more heat and the longer you hold it there the softer it will get until it reaches its base state or the zinc boils off.
When you fire a cartridge it expands to the size of your chamber. What happens next depends on how soft the brass was before you fire it. Soft brass is malleable, it changes shape and holds that shape very well. The harder it gets the more it "springs" back toward the shape it started with as long as it is not stretched to the point where it fails (cracking). The only way a brass case can get any longer or wider than the chamber is if the pressure is high enough to expand the CHAMBER more than the brass can rebound from. You can theoretically never size your brass if the neck of the chamber is small enough to allow the brass to spring back to the size it was before. Real life isn't like that. Chambers are machined in mass produced rifles so they will chamber any version of new cartridges made throughout the world. Your fired case is going to expand to fit the chamber and the neck will also expand. You need to squeeze the neck back to a point where it will hold a bullet more or less firmly. This growth of the brass causes it to get longer in the only place it can freely move, into the neck. That is why we have to trim the case after a few firings. I have neck sized cases for the last 35+ years and have never had to run them through a full length sizing die after they have been fired in my gun. I hunt with the same ammunition that I shoot targets with and have never had a failure to feed or a tight bolt close. If you run into those problems then your load is making too much pressure in your gun under your conditions (even if it is not at the maximum listed load). The pressure has to be high enough to expand the chamber in order for the brass to expand to the point where it sticks in the chamber. Your brass should always exit and enter the chamber without undue force.

As a new loader 48 years ago I started loading using the Lee Loader in a box. It only sized the necks of bottle-necked cases. When the cases started getting too long I got a trimmer and cut them back to the "trimmed" length listed in the book. (not a bad practice) When I switched to using a loading press and all the stuff that goes with that, I set the dies up in the press the way the instructions told me to (always follow directions). I began having split cases and case head separations because I was taking fired cases that expanded to my rifles chamber and then squeezing them back down so they would have to expand all over again. (my gun has a very large chamber) So each time I fired a case and squeezed it back into shape it was getting harder and harder until when it tried to expand to the size of the chamber the body of the brass would split. In other situations the expanding case was locked by the pressure in the forward part of the chamber and the pressure pushed the back of the case to fill the chamber until it was so thin that it would split around the brass just above the solid web which is called a case head separation.

I told you all this for just one reason: Set your dies up to match your chamber not by the instructions in the instructions that comes with them. Take a case that was fired in your gun and lube it lightly, brush the inside of the neck with a brush that is run on the lube pad, back your die so it misses contacting the raised ram by at least a half of an inch. Set the lubed case in the ram (shell holder) and raise the ram. With the decapping pin backed out (up into the die) screw the die down as far as you can with the ram held at the top of its stroke. Drop the ram and inspect the case. If it has not been sized at all (no squeeze marks on the neck or it has just a bit on it we can continue. Measure from the top of the neck (or bottom of the sized part of it) to the top of the shoulder.
Take a marker and color the neck and shoulder and just below the shoulder on the body of the case. Move you die down almost as much as the measurement you made from the top of the neck to the shoulder. It is best to leave wiggle room so if your not sure error on less movement of the die. Put the case back in the shell holder and raise the ram all the way up. Hold it there for a couple of seconds and then lower it. Look at the case neck to see how much has been sized. You want to keep screwing the die down until it just gets to the bottom of the neck. Take small steps 1/4 turn of the die is a lot of movement so go slow (you will only have to do this once with each die). Once you get all of the neck sized you are going to watch the shoulder of the case for contact marks. As soon as the die comes in contact with the shoulder, STOP. You lock the die in that position with the jam nut and set screw. Now lower the ram about 1/4" and hold it there while you screw the decapping rod down until it makes contact with the case. Move the ram back up to see if the primer falls out (it should). If it doesn't the screw the decapping pin down a bit more testing it at each adjustment. When the primer falls out then you use the lock nut to lock the decapping rod in position. Your full length sizing die is now set for your chamber. You can follow the instructions for the seating die but don't use the crimping part of the die. You won't need to crimp for your bolt action rifles.

IME, I've reloaded for a lot of my closest hunting friends for the past 40 years-in addition to rolling my own in 15 years of BR competition. In doing so, I have universally found the desired accuracy lies much closer to the upper end of load spectrum at the fringe of safe chamber pressure than anywhere near the bottom. My # 1 goal after safety is producing accurate loads and I learned to achieve this end that one must realize that brass is an expendable commodity. Not very many shooters (other than youths) will be satisfied using a gun with a cartridge capable of .308 ballistics downloaded to those of the 30/30.
Also, following Matts post, I invested in quality measuring tools and gauges early on as I found actually measuring changes in case dimensions is magnitudes more reliable than trying to discern "rub marks" left on cases and interpreting what they are telling me.

 

[JRS]

The warner die requires a press that has 1-1/4" -12 threads- OK for the bigger presses, but not so much for the smaller presses typically found in Short range BR.
I do not understand the hype over the Warner dies ability to interchange shims on the base of the die to control headspace. SR Benchrest competitors have used die shims for years under the die lockring to control HS. Granted you must remove the die each time....but looking at Warners design -you have to remove the shims from underneath the die with 3 screws which are up underneath the press.... looks cumbersome to me. I never have a problem with consistent measurements changing out the shims by threading dies in and out.

The shims are only one of the advantages. Those who use the WTC die realize why they come with a considerable price tag.

 

[LHSmith]

The shims are only one of the advantages. Those who use the WTC die realize why they come with a considerable price tag.

Sorry, but this image pops into my mind. I am a student of KISS

 

[Bloodtrailer]

Poor feller has prolly run out the door screaming with his hair on fire by now.

no,not at all, i find it amazing the willingness to help that is on this forum. It has my head spinning at times, lot of info processing going on in my head.when it gets to the point of confusing or i start getting thoughts mixed up, i walk away and do something different for a while. This forum ,and you guys, are awesome. I really respect and appreciate the time and knowledge that everyone shares.

 

[JRS]

no,not at all, i find it amazing the willingness to help that is on this forum. It has my head spinning at times, lot of info processing going on in my head.when it gets to the point of confusing or i start getting thoughts mixed up, i walk away and do something different for a while. This forum ,and you guys, are awesome. I really respect and appreciate the time and knowledge that everyone shares.

Don't forget you have 2 cartridges using different size bolt faces.

 

[Bloodtrailer]

Using a full length die to "neck size" means that you are partially sizing the whole case unless the case has a high degree of taper there will be some contact with the body of the case.
I do a lot of work with metal and have for years. Cartridge brass is just 70% copper and 30% zinc. It age hardens and work hardens - like all brass. if you apply heat it softens. The more heat and the longer you hold it there the softer it will get until it reaches its base state or the zinc boils off.
When you fire a cartridge it expands to the size of your chamber. What happens next depends on how soft the brass was before you fire it. Soft brass is malleable, it changes shape and holds that shape very well. The harder it gets the more it "springs" back toward the shape it started with as long as it is not stretched to the point where it fails (cracking). The only way a brass case can get any longer or wider than the chamber is if the pressure is high enough to expand the CHAMBER more than the brass can rebound from. You can theoretically never size your brass if the neck of the chamber is small enough to allow the brass to spring back to the size it was before. Real life isn't like that. Chambers are machined in mass produced rifles so they will chamber any version of new cartridges made throughout the world. Your fired case is going to expand to fit the chamber and the neck will also expand. You need to squeeze the neck back to a point where it will hold a bullet more or less firmly. This growth of the brass causes it to get longer in the only place it can freely move, into the neck. That is why we have to trim the case after a few firings. I have neck sized cases for the last 35+ years and have never had to run them through a full length sizing die after they have been fired in my gun. I hunt with the same ammunition that I shoot targets with and have never had a failure to feed or a tight bolt close. If you run into those problems then your load is making too much pressure in your gun under your conditions (even if it is not at the maximum listed load). The pressure has to be high enough to expand the chamber in order for the brass to expand to the point where it sticks in the chamber. Your brass should always exit and enter the chamber without undue force.

As a new loader 48 years ago I started loading using the Lee Loader in a box. It only sized the necks of bottle-necked cases. When the cases started getting too long I got a trimmer and cut them back to the "trimmed" length listed in the book. (not a bad practice) When I switched to using a loading press and all the stuff that goes with that, I set the dies up in the press the way the instructions told me to (always follow directions). I began having split cases and case head separations because I was taking fired cases that expanded to my rifles chamber and then squeezing them back down so they would have to expand all over again. (my gun has a very large chamber) So each time I fired a case and squeezed it back into shape it was getting harder and harder until when it tried to expand to the size of the chamber the body of the brass would split. In other situations the expanding case was locked by the pressure in the forward part of the chamber and the pressure pushed the back of the case to fill the chamber until it was so thin that it would split around the brass just above the solid web which is called a case head separation.

I told you all this for just one reason: Set your dies up to match your chamber not by the instructions in the instructions that comes with them. Take a case that was fired in your gun and lube it lightly, brush the inside of the neck with a brush that is run on the lube pad, back your die so it misses contacting the raised ram by at least a half of an inch. Set the lubed case in the ram (shell holder) and raise the ram. With the decapping pin backed out (up into the die) screw the die down as far as you can with the ram held at the top of its stroke. Drop the ram and inspect the case. If it has not been sized at all (no squeeze marks on the neck or it has just a bit on it we can continue. Measure from the top of the neck (or bottom of the sized part of it) to the top of the shoulder.
Take a marker and color the neck and shoulder and just below the shoulder on the body of the case. Move you die down almost as much as the measurement you made from the top of the neck to the shoulder. It is best to leave wiggle room so if your not sure error on less movement of the die. Put the case back in the shell holder and raise the ram all the way up. Hold it there for a couple of seconds and then lower it. Look at the case neck to see how much has been sized. You want to keep screwing the die down until it just gets to the bottom of the neck. Take small steps 1/4 turn of the die is a lot of movement so go slow (you will only have to do this once with each die). Once you get all of the neck sized you are going to watch the shoulder of the case for contact marks. As soon as the die comes in contact with the shoulder, STOP. You lock the die in that position with the jam nut and set screw. Now lower the ram about 1/4" and hold it there while you screw the decapping rod down until it makes contact with the case. Move the ram back up to see if the primer falls out (it should). If it doesn't the screw the decapping pin down a bit more testing it at each adjustment. When the primer falls out then you use the lock nut to lock the decapping rod in position. Your full length sizing die is now set for your chamber. You can follow the instructions for the seating die but don't use the crimping part of the die. You won't need to crimp for your bolt action rifles.

Thanks for a great explanation(even i could fully understand it).

 

[Bloodtrailer]

Don't forget you have 2 cartridges using different size bolt faces.

Not sure where you are going with that. You mean in terms of dies and shell holders?

 

[JRS]

Not sure where you are going with that. You mean in terms of dies and shell holders?

Your opening post sounds as though you are using one gun for both cartridges?

 

[Barlow]

Just a thought on neck tension. Most of the standard over the counter dies I own seem to be in the .002-.003 range. You could increase that by using a smaller expander ball, or decrease it by using an expander mandrel like K&M. I have used the K&M on several cartridges and found them not to add any runout, but also learned that .001 neck tension causes problems with hunting loads. Barlow

 

[Bloodtrailer]

Sound like he needs to shoot better. Smile Larry

LoL, i am an avid bow hunter, that is where the name came from. Following a blood trail tracking deer is my favorite part of the hunt. I know, im weird, but i love it.

 

[Bloodtrailer]

Your opening post sounds as though you are using one gun for both cartridges?

Ohh, no not at all. Have a Ruger M77 mark ll target in 22-250 and Savage 11/111 trophy hunter XP in .300 win mag. Thanks for looking out for my safety.

 

[Langey]

LoL, i am an avid bow hunter, that is where the name came from. Following a blood trail tracking deer is my favorite part of the hunt.

That's what I would have guessed.

 

[savagedasher]

LoL, i am an avid bow hunter, that is where the name came from. Following a blood trail tracking deer is my favorite part of the hunt. I know, im weird, but i love it.

I fully understand that I hunted with bad shooter all my life . I used many of roles of T P Larry

 

[Homerange]

Thanks for a great explanation(even i could fully understand it).

As a newbie reloader your confusion is quite understandable, there's a good amount of terminology and process to get your head around. Which process path you'll go down will initially budget and understanding dominated and once you've achieved at least factory load performance, then if you want to go further then you'll need to put your hand in your pocket a little deeper. Sound case prep is worth focussing on initially if only to minimise load variability by removing just one factor. If you're not intending to shoot lots, the gear required can be kept to a minimum.

Lee case trimmers and case prep tools of their hand operated types, a cordless drill and to remove one other variable a Sinclair Gen II flash hole chamfer tool do all I need for a very modest total investment.
For a hundred of so loads a year you can probably get away with the primer seating tools that are used in/with presses, even though they're not very fast. A set of calipers and you're good to go. I use the cheap Frankford dial face ones for most everything and they're adequate for basic reloading. When you outgrow them and get something they can go to the workshop.

If you're going shoot lots or chase all your rifles are capable of then you'll need to invest much more in your gear but remember you need to learn good sound basics first.

 

[P72]

I use Forster F/L dies that have had the neck portion enlarged to my specs with the goal of reducing neck work hardening by squashing the enlarging necks excessively, then expanding them by action of the expander button. When this is done properly using the neck enlarged Forster F/L dies the necks will be minimally worked. I greatly prefer to F/L size, head-space is maintained where I want it and the cases easily slide into the chamber. An alternative is to use F/L bushing dies and I use these for my wildcat cartridges - like .20 Practical's. by use of .223 F/L bushing dies. Necks may be outside turned to avoid excessive working but don't do this excessively because there might not be enough neck tension to hold bullets.

The Forster F/L dies are available in most standard calibers for about $37 and Forster charges about $20 to "hone" them out in .001 increments not to exceed .008 and the $20 includes shipping. My advice would be to get a Forster F/L die and some type of seater die like the Hornady and when you get the neck diameter business figured out send the F/L die back to Forster for neck enlargement (honing).

I also head-space belted rounds using the shoulder vs. belt but that would involve more of a discussion.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Brass develops a range of expansion and contraction during firing and sizing that it's "happy" in. What we must remember is that the brass expands upon firing to the chamber size but the chamber also expands under pressure. Therefore, the brass wants to go back to this fully expanded state, and after a few firings and trips through the sizer, it loses some of it's ability to spring back as it did when new. So, the brass goes to the state of most expansion which occurred inside of the expanded barrel while under pressure, and wants to stay there.

 

[SheepDog]

Moving brass, whether a little or a lot hardens it. Each time a case is fired and resized it gets harder. We anneal the necks to bring it back to a soft state. We can't anneal the body of the case so it continues to harden. If you continue to resize a case and fire it, expanding it as it is fired and shrinking it when sized, it will eventually fail. Neck sizing only prevents the body of the case from expanding (over expanding) and diminishes the hardening process while at the same time allowing it to maintain a size just smaller than the chamber so it is able to spring back after firing. Brass becomes more of a spring as it hardens. As long as you don't expand it past the failure point it will continue to be a spring. That is why neck sized cases last so much longer in large chambers than full length sized cases. If you are dealing with a competition chamber then it could be small enough that there is very little work done in the resizing process. The necks have to expand to release the bullet under normal pressures so it is still important to anneal the cases to prevent failure in that area.

 

[LHSmith]

Moving brass, whether a little or a lot hardens it. Each time a case is fired and resized it gets harder. We anneal the necks to bring it back to a soft state. We can't anneal the body of the case so it continues to harden. If you continue to resize a case and fire it, expanding it as it is fired and shrinking it when sized, it will eventually fail. Neck sizing only prevents the body of the case from expanding (over expanding) and diminishes the hardening process while at the same time allowing it to maintain a size just smaller than the chamber so it is able to spring back after firing. Brass becomes more of a spring as it hardens. As long as you don't expand it past the failure point it will continue to be a spring. That is why neck sized cases last so much longer in large chambers than full length sized cases. If you are dealing with a competition chamber then it could be small enough that there is very little work done in the resizing process. The necks have to expand to release the bullet under normal pressures so it is still important to anneal the cases to prevent failure in that area.

I hope you are not equating the old school minimum SAAMI "match " chambers with today's "competition" chambers.....a lot of knowledge has been gained in recent years on deriving the right chamber specs designed to work with brand specific brass and the optimum dimensioned sizing die.

 

[SheepDog]

My "knowledge" of bench and long range competition is all old school. I decided before I was 30 that I didn't have the desire to join those sports. I'm just a hunter who likes to shoot very small groups. The guy that "took me under his wing" only used a neck sizing die without an expander in it and he used an eight inch arbor press to seat the bullets. You could push the sizing die down over the cartridge with your hand. So yep! I only know from what was taught to me by a few of the old guard.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My "knowledge" of bench and long range competition is all old school. I decided before I was 30 that I didn't have the desire to join those sports. I'm just a hunter who likes to shoot very small groups. The guy that "took me under his wing" only used a neck sizing die without an expander in it and he used an eight inch arbor press to seat the bullets. You could push the sizing die down over the cartridge with your hand. So yep! I only know from what was taught to me by a few of the old guard.

Not disagreeing with you, but more comes into it than that. Back to my post a bit...brass life is relative to how hot it's loaded and the support around the case. For example..222's used to be popular in BR, and got good brass life with quality brass and sizing techniques. But, typical loading pressures were less than is typical in BR cartridges of today and there's more barrel support around a smaller diameter case. Neck sizing only, was popular with this cartridge in it's hay day. FWIW.

There's more too getting 50 firings from a piece of brass than just buying Lapua. Pressure always matters, as does how much the brass is worked. Agreed..neck sizing only, does work the brass less..but if all it ever did was expand to static chamber dimensions then spring back...it'd never get tight anywhere. In reality, we know that's not the case.

But, barrels expand upon firing and the brass follows suit. In fact, that's exactly how a Pressure Trace system works. It uses strain gauges that measure barrel stretch and converts it to current and then to a graph you can see on a computer. You can literally see primer ignition and muzzle pressures, which are of course much, much lower than peak pressures. Without some shrinkage of the brass from it's maximum expansion, eventually, it will get tight. Remember this...a 1.000" peg does not fit a 1.000" hole...they are the SAME. There must be clearance for a given peg to freely fit into a given hole.

That's why I full length size...minimally.