This is a much easier solution:
Full length size or neck size
- Thread starter Bloodtrailer
- Start date
Shootin’ SAAMI spec factory chambers, initially I’ll setup full length dies screwed in far enough atop a +.010” Redding Competition Shellholder to cause the press linkage to cam over. This sizes the case body diameters to more consistent dimensions all the while setting up on the +.010” shellholder leaves room enough at the shoulder end of the die for the squeezing in on the case body to ‘encourage’ the case shoulder even further forward than the shoulder’s relative position retained, after spring back, having been fired within the rather spacious interior typical of many factory chambered SAAMI spec’ dimensions chambers.
It could still take a couple or three or more fire forming shots even with that, if any, additional length gained by full length sizing in a die purposely backed out the press threads an eighth of a turn or so, or setup ‘long’ atop a +.010” shellholder, before, eventually, a fire formed case finally exits the chamber, or exits the die, having retained, after spring back, a case head to shoulder datum length that’s near same as the distance from the bolt face to the chamber’s shoulder datum.
Once armed with a case whose length from head to shoulder datum is now likely a tad too long, it’s time for using an ever shorter Competition shellholder and/or small die adjustments turning back in, looking to setback the case shoulder just enough to end up with a head to shoulder datum length representative of the chamber’s length. Testing is by the feel of closing a stripped bolt (firing pin and ejector removed) on the case, ‘looking’ to feel the bolt just barely begin push the case’s shoulder ‘into’ the chamber’s shoulder just as the bolt handle bottoms out closed. A case ~ half a thousandth longer and you feel the resistance to closing sooner with a bit more of the bolt handle’s swing remaining. A case ~ half a thousandth shorter and the bolt closes fully offering no resistance, that’d be assuming the case rim was already captured behind the extractor.
Then measure, using whatever’s your favorite case head to shoulder datum comparator, and record “the number” for all prosperity. Record as well, the method details and what all the exact gadgets and instruments utilized in arriving at “the number”. Substitute anything other than later on and “the number” is likely made no longer valid. So, be sure to label and save the test case with all other records belonging to “the number”.
Now well armed with “the number” representative of your chamber’s near exact bolt face to shoulder datum length, any press with any suitable die and shellholder combination can be tweaked to setback, or not, the shoulder to forever make full length sized cases ‘bumped’, or not, to however much shorter, or length unchanged, or left longer, however you want ‘em to be relative to the near exact length of your chamber.
It could still take a couple or three or more fire forming shots even with that, if any, additional length gained by full length sizing in a die purposely backed out the press threads an eighth of a turn or so, or setup ‘long’ atop a +.010” shellholder, before, eventually, a fire formed case finally exits the chamber, or exits the die, having retained, after spring back, a case head to shoulder datum length that’s near same as the distance from the bolt face to the chamber’s shoulder datum.
Once armed with a case whose length from head to shoulder datum is now likely a tad too long, it’s time for using an ever shorter Competition shellholder and/or small die adjustments turning back in, looking to setback the case shoulder just enough to end up with a head to shoulder datum length representative of the chamber’s length. Testing is by the feel of closing a stripped bolt (firing pin and ejector removed) on the case, ‘looking’ to feel the bolt just barely begin push the case’s shoulder ‘into’ the chamber’s shoulder just as the bolt handle bottoms out closed. A case ~ half a thousandth longer and you feel the resistance to closing sooner with a bit more of the bolt handle’s swing remaining. A case ~ half a thousandth shorter and the bolt closes fully offering no resistance, that’d be assuming the case rim was already captured behind the extractor.
Then measure, using whatever’s your favorite case head to shoulder datum comparator, and record “the number” for all prosperity. Record as well, the method details and what all the exact gadgets and instruments utilized in arriving at “the number”. Substitute anything other than later on and “the number” is likely made no longer valid. So, be sure to label and save the test case with all other records belonging to “the number”.
Now well armed with “the number” representative of your chamber’s near exact bolt face to shoulder datum length, any press with any suitable die and shellholder combination can be tweaked to setback, or not, the shoulder to forever make full length sized cases ‘bumped’, or not, to however much shorter, or length unchanged, or left longer, however you want ‘em to be relative to the near exact length of your chamber.
Small base dies don't always size down far enough. There are specialized ring dies that might do the trick, but before I would go that route, I would rechamber with a reamer that is known to function well with my FL die to avoid future aggravation. I much prefer using die shims to "tweak" cases that refuse the bump. Pulling the handle a little harder never netted repeatable results for me.
What could be more typical than a FL non-bushing reloading die? FWIW purchasing a Hornady Headspace Gauge set will save the reloaders brass from overworking far more than alternating between Neck sizing and FLS.
If your expanding the base of the brass your chamber is sloppy or you over pressureing the case . 25 reloading and never have had that problem Larry
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Myself I full length (F/L) size every time for these reasons:
- consistent case dimensions, that in return can help assure equal pressure to adhere to the chamber walls
- brass has spring memory, by repeatedly preparing cases exactly the same each cycle aids to the memory
- experience pressure spikes when cases are making contact with the chamber walls
- demand smooth and effortless bolt function on every round to both closer and bolt lift. Which I can achieve with less limitations when my cases are assured clearance and equal clearance, from F/L sizing every cycle.
- gains in velocity/pressure ES/SD, from case dimension consistency and assured no contact with the chamber
- myself anyhow; achieve more consistent accuracy day to day, week to week, month to month
My 2-Cents
Donovan
- consistent case dimensions, that in return can help assure equal pressure to adhere to the chamber walls
- brass has spring memory, by repeatedly preparing cases exactly the same each cycle aids to the memory
- experience pressure spikes when cases are making contact with the chamber walls
- demand smooth and effortless bolt function on every round to both closer and bolt lift. Which I can achieve with less limitations when my cases are assured clearance and equal clearance, from F/L sizing every cycle.
- gains in velocity/pressure ES/SD, from case dimension consistency and assured no contact with the chamber
- myself anyhow; achieve more consistent accuracy day to day, week to week, month to month
My 2-Cents
Donovan
Last edited:
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
("I'am getting ready to start reloading??") Get yourself a full length die and be done with it. As you get more experience, THEN you can think about neck sizing or trying something different. Keep it as simple as you can. More than time enough to get confused.
Warner Tool Company.
jepp2
Gold $$ Contributor
My belted mags headspace off the shoulder. If I set up my die to headspace off the belt, I will force the shoulder back an extra ~0.015", and that is why some folks get so few firing from belted mags before incipient case head separation issues start to show up. On new factory brass that is sized to headspace off the belt, the shoulder will be blown forward the ~0.015". Once is Ok, it is the subsequent sizing where you can create big problem.
For the most part I also full size each firing. Some I use a Redding body die then a Lee collet die. On others I use a Redding FL sizing die with the neck honed to the ID I want and a carbide expander. TIR in either case runs less than 0.001". But on my bolt guns I only set the shoulder back 0.001-0.002". On AR's I set the shoulder back around 0.003".
They are really over 500.00 with shipping. Probably the best die made. Machining is second to none. Headspace can be controlled by shims added to base of die. Different inserts are available for other cartridges at a cheaper price. Matt
The warner die requires a press that has 1-1/4" -12 threads- OK for the bigger presses, but not so much for the smaller presses typically found in Short range BR.
I do not understand the hype over the Warner dies ability to interchange shims on the base of the die to control headspace. SR Benchrest competitors have used die shims for years under the die lockring to control HS. Granted you must remove the die each time....but looking at Warners design -you have to remove the shims from underneath the die with 3 screws which are up underneath the press.... looks cumbersome to me. I never have a problem with consistent measurements changing out the shims by threading dies in and out.
I do not understand the hype over the Warner dies ability to interchange shims on the base of the die to control headspace. SR Benchrest competitors have used die shims for years under the die lockring to control HS. Granted you must remove the die each time....but looking at Warners design -you have to remove the shims from underneath the die with 3 screws which are up underneath the press.... looks cumbersome to me. I never have a problem with consistent measurements changing out the shims by threading dies in and out.
HTSmith
Silver $$ Contributor
Poor feller has prolly run out the door screaming with his hair on fire by now.("I'am getting ready to start reloading??") Get yourself a full length die and be done with it. As you get more experience, THEN you can think about neck sizing or trying something different. Keep it as simple as you can. More than time enough to get confused.
I would argue that anyone who uses the name Bloodtrailer is likely to hunt with this ammo. Therefore FL sizing makes a lot of sense.
gambleone
Silver $$ Contributor
When i started reloading i started with a 22-250 & factory brass. Got a reloading book & started reading everything i could. Remember reading that fl sizing overworked the brass & that neck sizing would cut down on this. Each time i neck sized i found the brass growing slow but sure & after about 3-4 x neck sizing i had to shoulder bump. So i found out by trial & error to just FL size. Also realized this will help with consistency. NorCalMikie gave you good advice.
FL Size.
FL Size.
Using a full length die to "neck size" means that you are partially sizing the whole case unless the case has a high degree of taper there will be some contact with the body of the case.
I do a lot of work with metal and have for years. Cartridge brass is just 70% copper and 30% zinc. It age hardens and work hardens - like all brass. if you apply heat it softens. The more heat and the longer you hold it there the softer it will get until it reaches its base state or the zinc boils off.
When you fire a cartridge it expands to the size of your chamber. What happens next depends on how soft the brass was before you fire it. Soft brass is malleable, it changes shape and holds that shape very well. The harder it gets the more it "springs" back toward the shape it started with as long as it is not stretched to the point where it fails (cracking). The only way a brass case can get any longer or wider than the chamber is if the pressure is high enough to expand the CHAMBER more than the brass can rebound from. You can theoretically never size your brass if the neck of the chamber is small enough to allow the brass to spring back to the size it was before. Real life isn't like that. Chambers are machined in mass produced rifles so they will chamber any version of new cartridges made throughout the world. Your fired case is going to expand to fit the chamber and the neck will also expand. You need to squeeze the neck back to a point where it will hold a bullet more or less firmly. This growth of the brass causes it to get longer in the only place it can freely move, into the neck. That is why we have to trim the case after a few firings. I have neck sized cases for the last 35+ years and have never had to run them through a full length sizing die after they have been fired in my gun. I hunt with the same ammunition that I shoot targets with and have never had a failure to feed or a tight bolt close. If you run into those problems then your load is making too much pressure in your gun under your conditions (even if it is not at the maximum listed load). The pressure has to be high enough to expand the chamber in order for the brass to expand to the point where it sticks in the chamber. Your brass should always exit and enter the chamber without undue force.
As a new loader 48 years ago I started loading using the Lee Loader in a box. It only sized the necks of bottle-necked cases. When the cases started getting too long I got a trimmer and cut them back to the "trimmed" length listed in the book. (not a bad practice) When I switched to using a loading press and all the stuff that goes with that, I set the dies up in the press the way the instructions told me to (always follow directions). I began having split cases and case head separations because I was taking fired cases that expanded to my rifles chamber and then squeezing them back down so they would have to expand all over again. (my gun has a very large chamber) So each time I fired a case and squeezed it back into shape it was getting harder and harder until when it tried to expand to the size of the chamber the body of the brass would split. In other situations the expanding case was locked by the pressure in the forward part of the chamber and the pressure pushed the back of the case to fill the chamber until it was so thin that it would split around the brass just above the solid web which is called a case head separation.
I told you all this for just one reason: Set your dies up to match your chamber not by the instructions in the instructions that comes with them. Take a case that was fired in your gun and lube it lightly, brush the inside of the neck with a brush that is run on the lube pad, back your die so it misses contacting the raised ram by at least a half of an inch. Set the lubed case in the ram (shell holder) and raise the ram. With the decapping pin backed out (up into the die) screw the die down as far as you can with the ram held at the top of its stroke. Drop the ram and inspect the case. If it has not been sized at all (no squeeze marks on the neck or it has just a bit on it we can continue. Measure from the top of the neck (or bottom of the sized part of it) to the top of the shoulder.
Take a marker and color the neck and shoulder and just below the shoulder on the body of the case. Move you die down almost as much as the measurement you made from the top of the neck to the shoulder. It is best to leave wiggle room so if your not sure error on less movement of the die. Put the case back in the shell holder and raise the ram all the way up. Hold it there for a couple of seconds and then lower it. Look at the case neck to see how much has been sized. You want to keep screwing the die down until it just gets to the bottom of the neck. Take small steps 1/4 turn of the die is a lot of movement so go slow (you will only have to do this once with each die). Once you get all of the neck sized you are going to watch the shoulder of the case for contact marks. As soon as the die comes in contact with the shoulder, STOP. You lock the die in that position with the jam nut and set screw. Now lower the ram about 1/4" and hold it there while you screw the decapping rod down until it makes contact with the case. Move the ram back up to see if the primer falls out (it should). If it doesn't the screw the decapping pin down a bit more testing it at each adjustment. When the primer falls out then you use the lock nut to lock the decapping rod in position. Your full length sizing die is now set for your chamber. You can follow the instructions for the seating die but don't use the crimping part of the die. You won't need to crimp for your bolt action rifles.
I do a lot of work with metal and have for years. Cartridge brass is just 70% copper and 30% zinc. It age hardens and work hardens - like all brass. if you apply heat it softens. The more heat and the longer you hold it there the softer it will get until it reaches its base state or the zinc boils off.
When you fire a cartridge it expands to the size of your chamber. What happens next depends on how soft the brass was before you fire it. Soft brass is malleable, it changes shape and holds that shape very well. The harder it gets the more it "springs" back toward the shape it started with as long as it is not stretched to the point where it fails (cracking). The only way a brass case can get any longer or wider than the chamber is if the pressure is high enough to expand the CHAMBER more than the brass can rebound from. You can theoretically never size your brass if the neck of the chamber is small enough to allow the brass to spring back to the size it was before. Real life isn't like that. Chambers are machined in mass produced rifles so they will chamber any version of new cartridges made throughout the world. Your fired case is going to expand to fit the chamber and the neck will also expand. You need to squeeze the neck back to a point where it will hold a bullet more or less firmly. This growth of the brass causes it to get longer in the only place it can freely move, into the neck. That is why we have to trim the case after a few firings. I have neck sized cases for the last 35+ years and have never had to run them through a full length sizing die after they have been fired in my gun. I hunt with the same ammunition that I shoot targets with and have never had a failure to feed or a tight bolt close. If you run into those problems then your load is making too much pressure in your gun under your conditions (even if it is not at the maximum listed load). The pressure has to be high enough to expand the chamber in order for the brass to expand to the point where it sticks in the chamber. Your brass should always exit and enter the chamber without undue force.
As a new loader 48 years ago I started loading using the Lee Loader in a box. It only sized the necks of bottle-necked cases. When the cases started getting too long I got a trimmer and cut them back to the "trimmed" length listed in the book. (not a bad practice) When I switched to using a loading press and all the stuff that goes with that, I set the dies up in the press the way the instructions told me to (always follow directions). I began having split cases and case head separations because I was taking fired cases that expanded to my rifles chamber and then squeezing them back down so they would have to expand all over again. (my gun has a very large chamber) So each time I fired a case and squeezed it back into shape it was getting harder and harder until when it tried to expand to the size of the chamber the body of the brass would split. In other situations the expanding case was locked by the pressure in the forward part of the chamber and the pressure pushed the back of the case to fill the chamber until it was so thin that it would split around the brass just above the solid web which is called a case head separation.
I told you all this for just one reason: Set your dies up to match your chamber not by the instructions in the instructions that comes with them. Take a case that was fired in your gun and lube it lightly, brush the inside of the neck with a brush that is run on the lube pad, back your die so it misses contacting the raised ram by at least a half of an inch. Set the lubed case in the ram (shell holder) and raise the ram. With the decapping pin backed out (up into the die) screw the die down as far as you can with the ram held at the top of its stroke. Drop the ram and inspect the case. If it has not been sized at all (no squeeze marks on the neck or it has just a bit on it we can continue. Measure from the top of the neck (or bottom of the sized part of it) to the top of the shoulder.
Take a marker and color the neck and shoulder and just below the shoulder on the body of the case. Move you die down almost as much as the measurement you made from the top of the neck to the shoulder. It is best to leave wiggle room so if your not sure error on less movement of the die. Put the case back in the shell holder and raise the ram all the way up. Hold it there for a couple of seconds and then lower it. Look at the case neck to see how much has been sized. You want to keep screwing the die down until it just gets to the bottom of the neck. Take small steps 1/4 turn of the die is a lot of movement so go slow (you will only have to do this once with each die). Once you get all of the neck sized you are going to watch the shoulder of the case for contact marks. As soon as the die comes in contact with the shoulder, STOP. You lock the die in that position with the jam nut and set screw. Now lower the ram about 1/4" and hold it there while you screw the decapping rod down until it makes contact with the case. Move the ram back up to see if the primer falls out (it should). If it doesn't the screw the decapping pin down a bit more testing it at each adjustment. When the primer falls out then you use the lock nut to lock the decapping rod in position. Your full length sizing die is now set for your chamber. You can follow the instructions for the seating die but don't use the crimping part of the die. You won't need to crimp for your bolt action rifles.
Seems it would be a lot easier to get a Hornady Headspace Guage set and measure the amount of shoulder bump. .001 TO .002 Is enough and you are not overworking the brass. Cartridges will function good and will also shoot accurate. MATT
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