Frustrated with my brass

[muleman69]

get a die that fits your chamber.
over working the shoulder to get the base small is going to shorten the life of your brass.
try the reverse order. small base only then bump shoulder for a little clearance.

Sounds good,Should I use body die first then small base full length size or just the F/L ?

 

[tn6br]

Sounds good,Should I use body die first then small base full length size or just the F/L ?

I think you’re over complicating things. If you have a small base f/l die that should be all you need. Run the die down till you bump your shoulder back a couple thou smaller than fired brass. If it still hangs up at the head of the case you will need a custom die or have your chamber polished out for more clearance in the head.

 

[muleman69]

I think you’re over complicating things. If you have a small base f/l die that should be all you need. Run the die down till you bump your shoulder back a couple thou smaller than fired brass. If it still hangs up at the head of the case you will need a custom die or have your chamber polished out for more clearance in the head.

I'm with you, think I should stop back and take a good look . One problem is that the shell holder comes up tight before bass gets sized. I wonder if anyone has taken a .001 of the top of there shell holder?

 

[Eric Leonard]

where is Mr. Guffey when you need him?

 

[tn6br]

I'm with you, think I should stop back and take a good look . One problem is that the shell holder comes up tight before bass gets sized. I wonder if anyone has taken a .001 of the top of there shell holder?

Be conscious that you aren’t pushing shoulder back too far

 

[tn6br]

I would send harrells 3 pcs of fired brass and get a good die That fits your rifle

 

[retired]

gentlemen
you are ignoring the fact that if you go all the way to the base of a fl die the brass will
be very short...typical . yes the brass will fir the gun..but it will not last long.
if you base size first, and then a small shoulder bump with a std fl die, it should work.
best is to get a die that fits

 

[jds holler]

I'm with you, think I should stop back and take a good look . One problem is that the shell holder comes up tight before bass gets sized. I wonder if anyone has taken a .001 of the top of there shell holder?

I did in fact do this, and still found that I simply needed to use a small base die. Shoulder/datum was fine, I simply wasn't getting a small enough diameter to the case body especially toward the case head.

I bought a used 308 small base die off e-bay, and went back to rocking and rolling. Went back to unmodified shell holder, and leave shoulder as it comes from properly adjusted fl die.

F Guffey hangs out over on TFL forum, and he can explain it all for ya. jd

 

[fguffey]

Made some up and went to range

It is too bad a reloader is not able to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face before leaving the house. First; I form and then fire, that beats fire forming with no clue as to why the case is difficult to chamber and difficult to extract.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

F Guffey hangs out over on TFL forum, and he can explain it all for ya. jd

The small base die, that is the problem solver, my small base dies will not size the base of my cases because of the deck height of the shell holder. My shell holders have a deck height of .125 plus there is a radius. I always suggest the reloader measure before and again after, measure what with what?

F. Guffey

 

[Comrade Terry]

The small base die, that is the problem solver, my small base dies will not size the base of my cases because of the deck height of the shell holder. My shell holders have a deck height of .125 plus there is a radius. I always suggest the reloader measure before and again after, measure what with what?

F. Guffey

 

[muleman69]

I did in fact do this, and still found that I simply needed to use a small base die. Shoulder/datum was fine, I simply wasn't getting a small enough diameter to the case body especially toward the case head.

I bought a used 308 small base die off e-bay, and went back to rocking and rolling. Went back to unmodified shell holder, and leave shoulder as it comes from properly adjusted fl die.

F Guffey hangs out over on TFL forum, and he can explain it all for ya. jd

Hey thanks but what is TFL?

 

[jds holler]

TFL. The Firing Line Forum. Another site that I sometimes bounce around in. jd

 

[muleman69]

The small base die, that is the problem solver, my small base dies will not size the base of my cases because of the deck height of the shell holder. My shell holders have a deck height of .125 plus there is a radius. I always suggest the reloader measure before and again after, measure what with what?

F. Guffey

I'm sure the small base die and/or shell holder is my problem. Ran die down as tight as I care then resized. Bolt opens a bunch better(but not right for sure) . Were did you get your shell holders? Do you make them? Should I take this back to smith and have chamber looked at? Thanks

 

[muleman69]

TFL. The Firing Line Forum. Another site that I sometimes bounce around in. jd

thank you

 

[retired]

hmmm did you read what i said ?
do it in order and it works.
you keep that fl sb die and you will be buying more brass.
much smarter to just get the right die.
cost less than a box of brass.

I'm sure the small base die and/or shell holder is my problem. Ran die down as tight as I care then resized. Bolt opens a bunch better(but not right for sure) . Were did you get your shell holders? Do you make them? Should I take this back to smith and have chamber looked at? Thanks

 

[MNbogboy]

I have the FL small base as well as the small base body die.Going to run them down and try it until there is no more down...LOL

My thought would be; If the original numbers (3.1600 vs 3.1625......new brass 3.1585) are still the same from base to shoulder after you "tighten up" then maybe try taking down a shell holder a few thou before you end up buying the custom die. The shell holder will be a bunch cheaper! A machinist can do it with a surface grinder or do it your self with some good emery paper and a piece of glass. Doing it by hand takes a while but I have done it a time or two. You might have to dedicate this shell holder to that die set though. Hint: "take it down a little more than you think you need" .005 to .010 probably take an hour or less depending on how hard it is.
(been ther done that).

The 3.158 number seems like a nice "bump" allowance but check that your maximum headspace with a "go gauge"+shims is the 6.160 that your 3X brass is.

Good luck,
Randy

 

[fguffey]

I'm sure the small base die and/or shell holder is my problem. Ran die down as tight as I care then resized. Bolt opens a bunch better(but not right for sure) . Were did you get your shell holders? Do you make them? Should I take this back to smith and have chamber looked at?

The case has resistance to sizing, some cases have more resistance to sizing than other cases. I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring. I do not insist on full length sizing ever time I size the case; I do not want to oversize the case, over sizing the case allows for the case to travel when fired; I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

Should I take this back to smith and have chamber looked at?

No, I believe you should learn to determine if the die, press and shell holder returned the case to minimum length/size. If the press can not overcome the cases ability to resist sizing the case can not be full length sized. I have no problem with measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder before lowering the ram after sizing, if the reloader adjusted the die down to the shell holder with an additional 1/4 turn (.017") there should not be a gap between the die and shell holder when the ram is raised. There are time it is necessary to add an additional 1/4 turn meaning the die is lowered an additional .017"; 1/2 turn equals .034".


If I needed to use a small base die I would start by raising the case head off the deck of the shell holder with a feeler gage. Most reloaders reach for the grinder and start grinding the top of the shell holder, not necessary if they can operate a feeler gage. The feeler gage reduces the deck height of the shell holder. Reducing the deck height increases the presses' ability to over come the cases ability to resist sizing.


And then there is that part about returning the rifle to the smith: I am the fan of transfers and standards. If the smith has a standard like a head space gage and if the smith has the ability to verify the gage he will tell you he has done all he can do. I have new, over the counter, never fired factory loaded ammo; I can verify the ammo is full length sized in length and diameter. if my factory loaded ammo will not chamber there is something wrong with the chamber because full length sized cases are smaller in length and diameter than a go-gage chamber.


I do not care if the chamber is long or short, I size cases for short chambers, I size cases for long chambers. Again: I have one chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length case; and I have forums full of reloaders that claim I am going to have case head separation because I have too much head space. I can not convince them the shoulder on my long chambered rifle does not move when fired.


And I use the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber,


F. Guffey

 

[muleman69]

The case has resistance to sizing, some cases have more resistance to sizing than other cases. I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring. I do not insist on full length sizing ever time I size the case; I do not want to oversize the case, over sizing the case allows for the case to travel when fired; I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.
Thanks ,great info and gives me more options. Like the feeler gauge idea and going to check that out today. Think it is time to call the smith as well




No, I believe you should learn to determine if the die, press and shell holder returned the case to minimum length/size. If the press can not overcome the cases ability to resist sizing the case can not be full length sized. I have no problem with measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder before lowering the ram after sizing, if the reloader adjusted the die down to the shell holder with an additional 1/4 turn (.017") there should not be a gap between the die and shell holder when the ram is raised. There are time it is necessary to add an additional 1/4 turn meaning the die is lowered an additional .017"; 1/2 turn equals .034".


If I needed to use a small base die I would start by raising the case head off the deck of the shell holder with a feeler gage. Most reloaders reach for the grinder and start grinding the top of the shell holder, not necessary if they can operate a feeler gage. The feeler gage reduces the deck height of the shell holder. Reducing the deck height increases the presses' ability to over come the cases ability to resist sizing.


And then there is that part about returning the rifle to the smith: I am the fan of transfers and standards. If the smith has a standard like a head space gage and if the smith has the ability to verify the gage he will tell you he has done all he can do. I have new, over the counter, never fired factory loaded ammo; I can verify the ammo is full length sized in length and diameter. if my factory loaded ammo will not chamber there is something wrong with the chamber because full length sized cases are smaller in length and diameter than a go-gage chamber.


I do not care if the chamber is long or short, I size cases for short chambers, I size cases for long chambers. Again: I have one chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length case; and I have forums full of reloaders that claim I am going to have case head separation because I have too much head space. I can not convince them the shoulder on my long chambered rifle does not move when fired.


And I use the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber,


F. Guffey

 

[muleman69]

hmmm did you read what i said ?
do it in order and it works.
you keep that fl sb die and you will be buying more brass.
much smarter to just get the right die.
cost less than a box of brass.

Who did you say makes a good die? Thanks