head space 223 rem. fired vs full length sized

[short range]

Setting your dies to match the chamber is a good idea. It still sounds like something is wrong somewhere in your sizing setup because I just tried and could not set a shoulder back that far with the press camming over.

It is possible that your die is short. Every 223 die set that I have ever seen needed the die to touch the shellholder for the brass to chamber easily.

Please check your brass after the second, third, or fourth firing for incipient casehead separation. Easily performed with a Sinclair ( ) paper clip.

The way that I have my die set up now is according to Lee's direction. " Screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram and screw the die in 1/4 turn, raise the ram and finger tighten the lock ring"
I will keep checking the brass each time after I fire them to look for any problems, but with the die set correctly, I think I corrected the problem.

 

[yukonal]

I'll throw a monkey wrench into all of this. This was explained to me by a custom AR gunsmith.

You really don't know exactly how much to resize the fired brass-other than to return it to saami specs-because the fired brass is a false measurement of headspace in your ...AR...chamber. As your bolt is ripping a HOT, SOFT fired case out of the chamber, right after firing, it stretches it longer than the actual chamber (headspace) measurement of your rifle.

Hard to explain, harder yet to understand, but maybe someone that shoots AR's can explain it better. Just understand...an AR stretches the case during extraction/ejection...whereas with a boltgun, the case has cooled down enough before cycle time, that it doesn't stretch, and give false readings.

When I first started resizing AR brass, I sweated it too.

 

[short range]

Today I loaded twenty rounds with mixed once fired brass that I got from the range. I set up my die according to Lee's directions. That set the length from the head to the shoulder to 1.434" I loaded them with H335 23.7 gr and Hornady 55 gr spire point bullets. I also brought along twenty rounds that I had loaded before I screwed up my die setting, these were mixed Lake City brass loaded with Benchmark 24.5 gr and Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets. After firing, All of the fired brass length from head to shoulder was 1.436" except 3 that measured 1.435" so with the die set up the way it is now, sets the shoulder back .002" I didn't have any feeding or ejection problems and the primers looked good with a rounded edge, so I think I'm set up correctly now. I will continue to monitor shoulder measurements, and checking brass and primers.

 

[RStewart]

Today I loaded twenty rounds with mixed once fired brass that I got from the range. I set up my die according to Lee's directions. That set the length from the head to the shoulder to 1.434" I loaded them with H335 23.7 gr and Hornady 55 gr spire point bullets. I also brought along twenty rounds that I had loaded before I screwed up my die setting, these were mixed Lake City brass loaded with Benchmark 24.5 gr and Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets. After firing, All of the fired brass length from head to shoulder was 1.436" except 3 that measured 1.435" so with the die set up the way it is now, sets the shoulder back .002" I didn't have any feeding or ejection problems and the primers looked good with a rounded edge, so I think I'm set up correctly now. I will continue to monitor shoulder measurements, and checking brass and primers.

Sounds like you got the shoulder bump fixed. Good luck.

 

[kelbro]

I still don't understand how the die was set up (wrong) in the beginning to get that much headspace. What did you do differently?

 

[short range]

I still don't understand how the die was set up (wrong) in the beginning to get that much headspace. What did you do differently?

I think what happened was, I took the die apart to clean it, and when I put it back together, I screwed the in die too far, and that's what created that much Headspace.

 

[matorre]

He has a potentially dangerous situation here, ( excess headspace ) and no amount of contortions to save a few dollars, is worth blowing a magazine out and splitting a bolt carrier and upper when one of those cases lets go.

But................

some people go 100 mph on dry - rot tires, too.

Be sure to take videos when you fire the gun, as it might be instructive to others.

Regards
Michael

 

[short range]

I was telling a friend of mine about my problem with this brass. He said why is it unsafe to fire form this brass with the shoulder set back .013" when people fire form 223 rem. brass into 223 A1 Ackley all the time, and they are pushing the shoulder forward .0473" more than 4 times what I would be pushing these shoulders forward. I told him that is a good question. The 223 rem measurement from the base of the brass to the shoulder is 1.4378" the measurement of the 223 A1 Ackley is 1.4851" to the shoulder, a difference of .0473" I got these measurements from this 6mmBR.com home page 223rem info page. "Graymist's 223 A1 page" The info states " Fire-forming 223 A1 brass is very easy compared to some of the other Ackleyized wildcats. This is because the overall geometry doesn't change very drastically other than the shoulder angle. Graymist simply loads a stout charge of H335 with 40gr V-max. Fire-forming was straight forward. Put the 223 cartridge in the rifle and pull the trigger. None of the complications I had fire-forming other Ackley Improved cartridges. I lost no cases when fire-forming. "

 

[alf]

Because in a properly headspaced Ackley, you may be blowing the shoulder forward, but the case is still held tight at the neck/shoulder juncture, allowing the shoulder to move w/o thinning the brass at the web.

 

[short range]

thanks alf, That make sense, so my brass neck / shoulder junction is also pushed back along with the shoulder. That answers that question for both me and my friend.

 

[short range]

He has a potentially dangerous situation here, ( excess headspace ) and no amount of contortions to save a few dollars, is worth blowing a magazine out and splitting a bolt carrier and upper when one of those cases lets go.

But................

some people go 100 mph on dry - rot tires, too.

Be sure to take videos when you fire the gun, as it might be instructive to others.

Regards
Michael

Michael, I wasn't going to respond to your comments, but I changed my mind. The reason I posted this topic was I was concerned that there might be a safety issue with this brass, also I was wondering if there was a way that I could safely fix the brass so I didn't have to disgard it. I didn't realize that I had the shoulder pushed back so far until after I shot 10 rounds and inspected the brass. I never said that I was going to continue to use this brass in it's current state.

 

[matorre]

Not meaning to offend you, but since the clamour was rising to " save the brass, save the brass" was getting louder, I purposly posted a comment that was intended to be a bit inflamatory, to get your attention.

If the result was to get someone, ( you ), to back away from a dangerous situation, then good, my intent was realized.

If your feathers are ruffled, well, sorry...... that will pass.

Too many good people out there suffering from lack of knowledge.

Regards,
M-

 

[short range]

There is a lot of people ( myself included) that have a lack of knowledge. It's great that we have this forum to pick the brains of people with much more knowledge than some of us have.

 

[matorre]

I wouldn't say I have a lot of knowledge.

When I see someone close to getting hurt, I will hollar, though.

M