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For Deep Thinkers

Terry

Gold $$ Contributor
I'm trying to understand what makes a great cartridge great. At one time the .222 Remington was a great benchrest cartridge. More recently the 6PPC and the 30 BR. At 600 to 1,000 yards it's hard to beat the 6BR or one of the improved 6 BR variations.

If all factors were equal, brass, bullets, custom gun, etc., what sets a cartridge appart to be a great one? If great is defined by a formula, can that formula be carried over to other cartridges?

Thanks!

Terry
 
I think all the cartidges you name are still great. Human nature is to want the latest/greatest over the old tried-and-true. Developments in powders and bullets tend to help drive new cartridges or revive old ones.
 
ryanjay11 said:
Its the Indian, not the arrow........

Well, to some extent I concur. But a good Indian with a poorly balanced arrow doesn't bring home much table fare.
OP, if you're looking for a "constant" from which to establish a formula that works with every rifle/cartridge marriage I think you'll need to start collecting data and doing the math yourself. IMO, an exercise in futility. There are just too many variables involved to make it work.
 
Donovan, Hit it right on the nose......... Also lack of recoil,doesn't upset the gun on the bags....... jim
 
I believe that a small-rifle-primer case has an advantage over a large-primer case. I have no idea how to quantify that statement, but it is hard to argue with the physics and records involved.

Jack
 
If I was to design a great cartridge ,I would start with a great bullet. Then build everything around it.
 
a short powder column, primer size appropriate to case volume, high quality brass, chambers that are properly dimensioned and designed, manageable recoil, availability of top quality match bullets and barrels in the particular caliber. More recently, sharper shoulder angles, the availability of good dies for the caliber
 
Again, popularity and users.

Personally, I BELIEVE there is something to do with powder burn vs barrel length, pressure peaks and friction, but I don't know having neither the lab or math to describe it.

As you said, at this time, the br's are doing good, with something between 6.5 and 30 predominating.

Your gun?

Larry
Tinkerer
 
It's bounded by the limits of physics and technology. At one time the .50-100 Sharps was a great cartridge. (It still is if you are shooting black powder & cast lead.) At one time the 300 H&H was a great cartridge; back when all smokeless powders were very fast and erosive. What ever the powders, bullets and barrels of the day permit limits what can be great.
 
dmoran said:
My inputs are:
- "Efficiency makes repeatable accuracy"
- good and equal brass is the foundation to consistent accuracy
- when all else is right/good, the best accuracy will come down to the quality of the barrel and the quality of the bullets.

"Efficiency makes repeatable accuracy"

Let's take this concept and apply it to 6.5mm, 7mm, and 30 caliber cartridges. Would the 6.5 x 47 Lapua, .284 Shehane, and .300 WSM qualify as efficient? Great barrels and bullets are available for each. With the use of a muzzle break recoil is acceptable. Could these be built to shoot with the 6 Dasher?
 
What makes a cartridge great are BULLETS AND POWDER.

Regardless of the cartridge design, without the right projectile to launch and fuel to make it all happen, it is just another hunk of brass.

Put another way, a great cartridge simply has the right case volume to meet a certain performance parameter with a desired bullet pushed under ideal combustions conditions for an available powder.

Jerry
 
Tom, Sounds like your get old.... LOL. to heavy to carry to the line but what you said is a fact. My light guns will shoot in the 4-6" range not good enough to win in heavy but keep you in the running in the 2 gun agg. I count on the light to do the winning. The Dasher is hard to beat for the light gun if you have a good barrel and if the gun tracks....... jim
 
Everything has to come together for the intended purpose. A cartridge that is great in an unlimited 1,000 yard rifle isn't going to be great in a 10.5 lb short range benchrest rifle.
 
Let's take this concept and apply it to 6.5mm, 7mm, and 30 caliber cartridges. Would the 6.5 x 47 Lapua, .284 Shehane, and .300 WSM qualify as efficient? Great barrels and bullets are available for each. With the use of a muzzle break recoil is acceptable. Could these be built to shoot with the 6 Dasher?[/quote]

My input back: for long/heavy, high BC bullets, any time we can achieve near equal velocities with a smaller cartridge, efficiency is built into that cartridge.
Like say the 6Dasher compared to a 243Win.... it can achieve near the same velocity level from 12 to 15 less grains of powder. That is why it will agg' and repeat.
Or say the 300-WSM to the 300-WM, same scenario again.

Some experience from me: I shot 243-Improved versions for years, and was able to shoot very small groups with them often. When I went to a 6Dasher in 04' I did it for barrel life primarily, but also immediately found how the Dasher would shoot small darn near every time, and with out any doubt would repeat accuracy (agg) much better then would my 243's.
But it stands to good reason, for it was from the same bullets running very near the same velocities, but from 15-grains less powder. Getting 33-grains to burn consistently verses getting 48-grains to burn consistently, hence efficiency gains !.!.!

Donovan
[/quote]

I think that you are onto something here.
 
GSPV, A Dasher may surprise you at 100 YDS. I shot 6- 5 shot groups in a row After i opened the free bore diameter up and the Groups measured .101, .087, .084, .067 ,056 and .043 out of two different guns. This was smaller than my best PPC. barrel years ago..... but the best short range won't make at 1K........ jim
 
The Dasher is an amazing cartridge. I sometimes shoot a 10 twist straight BR with midweight bullets in bad conditions. There are definite advantages.

With that said...

How much does the Dasher weigh?

Are you condident that, at 10.5 lbs, it could be shot to, say, a .4000 grand agg?
 
tinkerer said:
Again, popularity and users.

Personally, I BELIEVE there is something to do with powder burn vs barrel length, pressure peaks and friction, but I don't know having neither the lab or math to describe it.

As you said, at this time, the br's are doing good, with something between 6.5 and 30 predominating.

Your gun?

Larry
Tinkerer

Larry

I shoot a Savage 6 BR in Factory class, a 6 Dasher in LG and HG, am currently working with a .284 Shehane, and have tried the 6.5 x 47 Lapua. When I look at what is winning IBS 600 and 1,000 yard matches it's usually a Dasher.
 
A good friend of mine shared the ratio concept to measure efficiency. In the case of the Dasher you may have 32.5 grains of powder VS a 105 grain bullet. The ratio is 30.9% (powder weight divided by bullet weight). With my .284 Shehane it's 53 grains of powder VS 180 grains for the bullet. The Ratio is 29.44%.

An interesting concept.
 
Not all of the Deep Thinkers are willing to tell the world what they know.

I'm serious about learning from you. Feel free to PM, email, or call 608-577-5193.
If it top secret say so and I'll keep it to myself.

Thanks!

Terry
 

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