flags, Flags, FLAGS!!!!

[jackieschmidt]

Thats kind of how I feel about short range shooters telling long range shooters how to do it. Or vice versa for that matter. First hand personal experiance matters in all aspects.

Alex, that is why I qualify my statements with……”as a Short Range Group and Score Shooter”……..

 

[AlNyhus]

I like the thought of this, but I think the material, weight, and size of the flag would have to be just right to make this math work out correctly.....right?

Most of these on-line guru resources would be sorely surprised if they ever used flags in the real world with a truly accurate rifle.

I've found that flag size, material and weight are relatively meaningless assuming the flag is balanced correctly. Certainly, they respond differently based on their weight but any well balanced flag will show you the angle. I have Hood doubles, some Harris singles, some air foil design and the past couple days shot over some Graham flags. They all show the angle...it's the tails you need to watch, as well.

My 2 cents worth to a very good discussion! -Al

 

[tom]

Seems to me both you tards were talking about 2 different things.....but at least neither had anything to do with flags.

Tom

 

[JimPag]

View attachment 1356883
Here are 7 - 9 flags at out to 300m. This is kinda my view without the scope. When they all turn a color you can see it out to 200. The farthest 3 are in the scope. The Tails are the real deal. Direction is just the direction
Ppl know i set allot of flags mainly because I have them. (It was a little bit of a buying obsession of mine) But it's really cool to see them all line up the same way. Easy to see. . Helps me have a plan.

Sometimes Johnny too many flags equal 2 much info. I know most people I know set 4 flags for 100 and 6 for both 2 and 300.

 

[Shooter13]

No on the laser ... Can't find it past 50 - 75 yrds plus I'd f up and find it with an eye, the temtation is strong !

... it would have to be as big as the rifle barrel to find the dot at 100+. Several tried using them at 50yds when shooting 22. It was a pita & quickly went away.
All have radios or cellphones .... Many are willing to help.
Relationship building exercise !

Now Johnnie! Chester uses a green dot and I purchased one quite some time ago but haven't used it, will be using it in the next week or so, normally we have two people to set flags, one on the gun and the other setting the flags. We fine tune when the targets are set up. I like mine staggered a bit, closest to the 100/200 target is set to the left of target, next one is centered (but always far enough left to not interfere with the previous flag, and so on for 3-4 flags. I'll let you know how the green dot works.

 

[Scott haywood]

I hear all the talk about "flags" but how can you get them into your scope zoomed in 55X and make an guesstimated decision, do you use flags for 600 and 1K IBS shooting ?
I'm a total newb and maybe I just don't get it

Its easy, you look through your scope with one eye and the other is watching flags, helps if you have the flags lined up properly and stacked so you can see each one, I use wider ribbon on the farther flags as I'm mostly just looking at where the tails are at between each shot.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Most of these on-line guru resources would be sorely surprised if they ever used flags in the real world with a truly accurate rifle.

I've found that flag size, material and weight are relatively meaningless assuming the flag is balanced correctly. Certainly, they respond differently based on their weight but any well balanced flag will show you the angle. I have Hood doubles, some Harris singles, some air foil design and the past couple days shot over some Graham flags. They all show the angle...it's the tails you need to watch, as well.

My 2 cents worth to a very good discussion! -Al

Flag balance is trickier than what meets the eye, especially daisy or pinwheel flags. All that area up front creates drag and as wind speed increases, drag increases. With that, the center of pressure moves forward. All is well until the center of pressure move in front of the center of gravity. That's when flags beat back and forth like windshield wipers in pretty heavy winds. What I'm saying is literally that there is a difference in static and dynamic balance. If you take them inside and balance them perfectly, you won't be happy in big wind. You either make the flag slightly tail heavy(static) or you add more area to the rear, which adds weight and slows the flag response down and makes it more critical to be plumb. Adding more area can be done with the tail, though. That's why I like sail tails..that and they should stay rigid and raise and lower like a gauge needle. Bottom line, the balance point does physically move in use. (dynamic.) More to a good flag design that meets the eye but I'll still take surveyor tape on a stick over grass, tree leaves and mirage. I use all of those too, though. All wind matters.

 

[JMayo]

Sometimes Johnny too many flags equal 2 much info. I know most people I know set 4 flags for 100 and 6 for both 2 and 300.

Lol i agree. If I'm shooting 1&200 "normally" 5 or 6 but when we do the 300m at SC i add in a couple of 10' and my 2 super tall ones.
At Ashe county we shoot in 1,2 3 order so i just get em out there. Then spread em out for 2 & 3 when we rotate.
It's really cool to see 7 flags stair stepped at 100 ! It's like a wide ribbon from 1st to 7th. Then the Tails all rising and lowering together.
Like a symphony man !

 

[Shooter13]

Most of these on-line guru resources would be sorely surprised if they ever used flags in the real world with a truly accurate rifle.

I've found that flag size, material and weight are relatively meaningless assuming the flag is balanced correctly. Certainly, they respond differently based on their weight but any well balanced flag will show you the angle. I have Hood doubles, some Harris singles, some air foil design and the past couple days shot over some Graham flags. They all show the angle...it's the tails you need to watch, as well.

My 2 cents worth to a very good discussion! -Al

In total agreement here but what I find funny is people will go spend a lot of money on flags and then you look down range and they haven't straighten the pole they set on!! This will put the flags "off balance" and you can never get a true sight window with the flag stick leaning in any direction!!

 

[tom]

When there drifted in behind the berms, and you can see them. It's in your face. Like this lovely Saturday at deep creek in April.




Tom

 

[R.Morehouse]

I use poles with a spike. When I set them in the ground I use a drill with a level on the back of it to be sure I am going straight in. Then once set I use a small level along the pole because I am anal....

Regards
Rick

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I use poles with a spike. When I set them in the ground I use a drill with a level on the back of it to be sure I am going straight in. Then once set I use a small level along the pole because I am anal....

Regards
Rick

Good idea Rick. Why am I not surprised? I bet that does help to get them pretty plumb. Personally, I don't worry about getting mine just perfectly plumb but they should be very close. I just go with the eyeball test but yes, the closer they are to being straight up and down, the better. I like the way you think. If the gun is level, the guy behind the gun can use the reticle to help if two people are setting them, too.

 

[BoydAllen]

Most of these on-line guru resources would be sorely surprised if they ever used flags in the real world with a truly accurate rifle.

I've found that flag size, material and weight are relatively meaningless assuming the flag is balanced correctly. Certainly, they respond differently based on their weight but any well balanced flag will show you the angle. I have Hood doubles, some Harris singles, some air foil design and the past couple days shot over some Graham flags. They all show the angle...it's the tails you need to watch, as well.

My 2 cents worth to a very good discussion! -Al

I have Hood flags with all of the optional pieces, standard vanes, large vanes, daisy wheels, and heavier front weights to use without them. Years ago I tested the various combinations against each other, properly balanced, to see which one turned first in a change in wind direction. While they all turned to show the angle, they did not all show the same responsiveness. I use the configuration that was the most sensitive. Of course the ribbons show a change before the vanes can move do to differences in inertia.

There was a fellow who used to shoot at Visalia who had made the most elegant. light flags you could imagine. The problem was that they would never settle down. They pretty much did a small angle oscillation all of the time. For me, this was less useful than flags that would settle down to a steady heading.

One thing that I have seen used to advantage on flag stands that are threaded on top is small, cheap ball heads so that the pivot pin can be plumbed. My flags do not have threaded connections but I have had friends with Graham flags use them and they like them.

 

[TrxR]

I use a small round bubble level taped to the center pivot piece of the flag and adjustable swivel on my flag stand so I can level the flag no matter where I put the stand.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There was a fellow who used to shoot at Visalia who had made the most elegant. light flags you could imagine. The problem was that they would never settle down. They pretty much did a small angle oscillation all of the time. For me, this was less useful than flags that would settle down to a steady heading.

Morning Boyd! Go back and read post 91. I can pretty much promise you that's why his flags wouldn't settle down. I don't think there is any such thing as a flag that is too sensitive but I do think a big heavy(relatively) design masks things like this. It really is about center of pressure vs center of gravity and the center of pressure changes with drag...which changes with wind speed. It can all easily be made to work nicely though. The best balance point(COG) depends on design. A flag with a lot of frontal area, such as a daisy, will have more pressure on the front, obviously. Taking flags indoors to balance them is a common mistake people make. You want a flag to be properly balanced in the wind, not in the house.

 

[BoydAllen]

Morning Boyd! Go back and read post 91. I can pretty much promise you that's why his flags wouldn't settle down. I don't think there is any such thing as a flag that is too sensitive but I do think a big heavy(relatively) design masks things like this. It really is about center of pressure vs center of gravity and the center of pressure changes with drag...which changes with wind speed. It can all easily be made to work nicely though. The best balance point(COG) depends on design. A flag with a lot of frontal area, such as a daisy, will have more pressure on the front, obviously. Taking flags indoors to balance them is a common mistake people make. You want a flag to be properly balanced in the wind, not in the house.

Personally I find flags that never stop oscillating harder to read and less useful. When wee are running in group, and glancing between shots, we need a fast read. The Visalia range is like shooting in a bathtub, with lots of fast switching and constant differences looking down a line of flags, under these conditions you need a flag to come to a solid reading ASAP because the wind is changing so quickly. I tell new shooters to walk up and down the line looking at different kinds of flags to find out which is easier for them to read. In my experience it varies from person to person.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Personally I find flags that never stop oscillating harder to read and less useful. When wee are running in group, and glancing between shots, we need a fast read. The Visalia range is like shooting in a bathtub, with lots of fast switching and constant differences looking down a line of flags, under these conditions you need a flag to come to a solid reading ASAP because the wind is changing so quickly. I tell new shooters to walk up and down the line looking at different kinds of flags to find out which is easier for them to read. In my experience it varies from person to person.

Thats what I'm saying sir. Its a matter of balance that will settle them down. Your friends flags needed to be slightly tail heavy. That doesn't mean they are tail heavy while the wind is blowing though. Read my post again.

 

[BoydAllen]

His flags were small, with the counterweight way out front on a length of music wire. I believe that the momentum of the front weight was more than the vane area could handle, particularly since the pivot point was built into the front of the vane. If the vane had been larger or farther back from the pivot I believe that there would not have been a problem. My flags seem not to be very balance critical, working well balanced with the pivot horizontal, or when a little tail heavy. I do believe that it is possible to have flags that are more sensitive to this sort of thing. Like I said, my habit is to keep primary focus on the ribbon for the beginning of changes.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

His flags were small, with the counterweight way out front on a length of music wire. I believe that the momentum of the front weight was more than the vane area could handle, particularly since the pivot point was built into the front of the vane. If the vane had been larger or farther back from the pivot I believe that there would not have been a problem. My flags seem not to be very balance critical, working well balanced with the pivot horizontal, or when a little tail heavy. I do believe that it is possible to have flags that are more sensitive to this sort of thing. Like I said, my habit is to keep primary focus on the ribbon for the beginning of changes.

YES! Adding more vane moves the center of pressure more rearward. It also adds weight though, that slightly slows them down. The vane on our flags is the equivalent to a vertical stabilizer on a plane. Its job is to prevent the nose from yawing back and forth, like I believe you are describing your friends flags to be doing. What we are really concerned with having proper balance of, is the center of pressure and we can't do that in the house. That's center of gravity. You could replace a daisy with a small piece of metal for example, of the same weight as the daisy and have the same center of gravity but you'd need far less vane to keep it from yawing....like an arrow

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

edited my post above.