flags, Flags, FLAGS!!!!

[TrxR]

I do it slightly different as I run my flags just slightly to the right of the rifle. I shoot lefty and with them just to the right I can see the flags with my right eye as I'm looking through the scope with my left. This is short range 50yrd 22lr benchrest and 100yd CF. I find with the field of view of my T36 I can't see much of anything but part of the target at 50yds .

I may be doing it wrong but it seems to work for me.

 

[JMayo]

Yeah my first 3 or 4 aren't on center the rest are.
On 100yd the main flags are the first ones closest to me.
On 200-300 about the 150- 200 Mark are what i look at .. Unless there is a wind changer to right or left. I normally don't set any closer to the target than 50 yds.

The sail Tails speak like a dial
.25, .35,.45 straight out, very end flipping up or down sometimes standing straight up.
Sail tails don't flutter around crazy.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I hear all the talk about "flags" but how can you get them into your scope zoomed in 55X and make an guesstimated decision, do you use flags for 600 and 1K IBS shooting ?
I'm a total newb and maybe I just don't get it

Context of the type of shooting is usually left out in flag discussions. All of the groups I have ever posted on this site have been without flags. Recently we put up some socks at the local range and I put up socks at Manatee and brought my own for matches. But I dont watch them when I shoot. There is so much to see at 600 and even more at 1k how could you compute it all and ever get a group down? I like mirage because its fast to see. I will study the conditions in the sighter period, watching flags and mirage. But when its time to shoot I just pick a condition and go. If you slow down to read the flags which you cant do at long range anyhow you will shoot bigger. I personally can hardly see my oversized smiley flags past 300. Lots of records coming from deep creek, we have some short range flags and some down range but the mirage is what most guys watch. Short range, yes you better have flags and know how to read them.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Context of the type of shooting is usually left out in flag discussions. All of the groups I have ever posted on this site have been without flags. Recently we put up some socks at the local range and I put up socks at Manatee and brought my own for matches. But I dont watch them when I shoot. There is so much to see at 600 and even more at 1k how could you compute it all and ever get a group down? I like mirage because its fast to see. I will study the conditions in the sighter period, watching flags and mirage. But when its time to shoot I just pick a condition and go. If you slow down to read the flags which you cant do at long range anyhow you will shoot bigger. I personally can hardly see my oversized smiley flags past 300. Lots of records coming from deep creek, we have some short range flags and some down range but the mirage is what most guys watch. Short range, yes you better have flags and know how to read them.

The mirage you're seeing in your scope is at one place down range, near the target where it matters slightly least. I like to use mirage to make sure it agrees with my flags but the flags are the most important in how I shoot. In short range, we have mirage and days where it is not a useful tool at our disposal. Bottom line I guess is, use EVERYTHING at your disposal. Information overload is real, even at short range when all the flags are going different directions. But the only way I know they're going all different directions is because I use flags. So..

 

[Alex Wheeler]

At short range Id be a flag shooter for sure. At 600 even. But I wouldnt let them slow me down. At 1k your bullet is so much higher than the flags. At deep creek the flags in front of the targets will go the opposite direction as the mirage very often. The mirage is the one telling the truth though. IF you could see all the flags down to the 1k line and your brain could compute all of that data fast and they were as high as the bullet trajectory (which would be against the rules) then maybe you could use them to better effect. If I can shoot my group in 10 seconds watching mirage or 20 seconds looking at flags I will shoot smaller in 10 seconds as a rule. Its not because flags dont work, its because no human can read all of the conditions down to 1k. And I am still amazed at the groups we can shoot at that distance without them and pretty regular. It seems impossible when you think about all the variables.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

At short range Id be a flag shooter for sure. At 600 even. But I wouldnt let them slow me down. At 1k your bullet is so much higher than the flags. At deep creek the flags in front of the targets will go the opposite direction as the mirage very often. The mirage is the one telling the truth though. IF you could see all the flags down to the 1k line and your brain could compute all of that data fast and they were as high as the bullet trajectory (which would be against the rules) then maybe you could use them to better effect. If I can shoot my group in 10 seconds watching mirage or 20 seconds looking at flags I will shoot smaller in 10 seconds as a rule. Its not because flags dont work, its because no human can read all of the conditions down to 1k. And I am still amazed at the groups we can shoot at that distance without them and pretty regular. It seems impossible when you think about all the variables.

I don't disagree but I think you're over thinking it. They should only slow you down to keep you from shooting in a switch. You still pick a condition and run, often. Score is tougher about that because of all the movement from bull to bull in sr score.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I don't disagree but I think you're over thinking it. They should only slow you down to keep you from shooting in a switch. You still pick a condition and run, often. Score is tougher about that because of all the movement from bull to bull in sr score.

Our exchange is a great example of why guys just need to try things and decide what they like. No right or wrong. Different ranges and distances will warrant different styles. At deep creek, I dont look at flags. I'll be shooting at Manatee again, 600, I did use flags there before and it was helpful. Actually they were white socks about 4 feet long made out of the lightest ripstop I could find that my lady friend sewed up for me so I could see them out to 600. Thats a market that is untapped. You need something you can actually see at longer range.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Heres an example. Me and Glenn were at the local range one morning and I said I was not going to waste the bullets. Our socks were like a jack handle, up and down fast. I watched Glenn shoot and not 2 shots were in the same flag condition, I figured it would be a mess. We went down to 1k and he had some 3s I think, so I said screw it I'll see what happens. I just shot fast.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Our exchange is a great example of why guys just need to try things and decide what they like. No right or wrong. Different ranges and distances will warrant different styles. At deep creek, I dont look at flags. I'll be shooting at Manatee again, 600, I did use flags there before and it was helpful. Actually they were white socks about 4 feet long made out of the lightest ripstop I could find that my lady friend sewed up for me so I could see them out to 600. Thats a market that is untapped. You need something you can actually see at longer range.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing. Different places and different days present different conditions.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Heres an example. Me and Glenn were at the local range one morning and I said I was not going to waste the bullets. Our socks were like a jack handle, up and down fast. I watched Glenn shoot and not 2 shots were in the same flag condition, I figured it would be a mess. We went down to 1k and he had some 3s I think, so I said screw it I'll see what happens. I just shot fast. View attachment 1357113

It happens, but not always with the same results

 

[Alex Wheeler]

It happens, but not always with the same results

For me it seems to, but again to each his own.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

For me it seems to, but again to each his own.

By all means, keep doing what works.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Serious question. How many flags do you recommend a guy should use out to 1k? How should you space them and how do you see them?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Serious question. How many flags do you recommend a guy should use out to 1k? How should you space them and how do you see them?

Honest answer is, as many as you can read and place them in logical areas such as near a cut in a treeline, for example. It's an ideal world when they all line up nice and pretty. Probably a good time to let em fly but how would you know without them? Some ranges give you those kinds of conditions more often than others but you can't know if they aren't there. Just try it. It's near impossible to deny the value of flags once you use them, even just a bit...and at any distance.

 

[JMayo]

I don't know of a thousand yard range that's capable of putting flags on. The only one i knows is over valleys with freaking chicken houses and stuff down in them !


At Piedmont 600 it's good and flat but I found flags were useless any further than 150+ yd. Shooting fast as possible there just wasn't a way to take into effect any kind of change. Take that last sighter and then let them rip.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id say put them out to 200 if possible and 100 definitely. The wind at 75 makes way more difference than the wind at 900. Just copy what bart does. The main thing flags out to 100 will do is show you how long something will hold and tell you when to stop or not start

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO the opinions of people who do not own or regularly use wind flags, about flags, are pretty much in the same category as those that tell you what is going on inside their barrels without using or owning a bore scope.

With regard to lasers, in the distant past I ran a relatively large outdoor range with paid rangemasters, that was open seven days a week to members and shooting public, and I can tell you with great certainty that without supervision, or concern about some sort of consequences, safety rules will not be properly followed. Bottom line, when considering things like lasers, that are strong enough to do retinal damage, the presumption that people will act responsibly is not well founded. Many will, some won't.

 

[Carl S]

If every match was run without any wind flags.i wonder what the groups and aggs would be like..I bet there would be some guys pulling there hair out...if they got any.one would see if flags were needed or not.interesting.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I don't know of a thousand yard range that's capable of putting flags on. The only one i knows is over valleys with freaking chicken houses and stuff down in them !


At Piedmont 600 it's good and flat but I found flags were useless any further than 150+ yd. Shooting fast as possible there just wasn't a way to take into effect any kind of change. Take that last sighter and then let them rip.

I think a good shooter can read flags out to around 300 yards. And that is stretching it.

At the very least they keep you from shooting in a reversal. If we had unlimited time during Matches, where we could wait untill everything was perfect, things would be a lot different. The clock waits for no one.

I think flag reading is especially important in VFS, where any little change can push the bullet’s impact off of the X.

just from my experience conversing with fellow shooters at my Gun Club in Tomball, I would venture a guess that 75 percent of the Club’s members do not have a clue how the conditions you are shooting into affect a bullet‘s path to the target.

 

[AlNyhus]

It's always amazed me how many shooters will spend money and devote time to what they term as 'load development'....while ignoring the single biggest factor that affects the 'on target' results.

Recently, a shooter at our range was shooting a suppressed Tactical style 308 with Federal 308 Match ammo. It looked like a well built gun but I happened to see his targets when I was hanging mine....1"-1 1/4" scraggly 3 shot groups was my guess as to the group sizes. There was over 1/2" of 'condition' by what I was seeing on my flags. He asked me "Do those things work?" when looking at my flags. I had him hold the same POA and tapped him on the shoulder when the flags showed it was time to shoot. The first group he fired was a nice, round group that measured just a bit over 1/2".

And while flags don't show us everything that's out there, the big benefit is showing you when not to shoot. Another benefit of learning to shoot over flags is that eventually you can get pretty good at shooting without them. Learning to shoot with both eyes open and the off eye watching the closer flags that you can't see in the scope takes some learning but it comes pretty quickly.

You can also see pretty quickly how shooters like the HBR (Hunter Bench Rest) class that are limited to 6X scopes can shoot such good scores (especially at 100 yds)....you can see all the flags in your scope. There's a point where seeing the flags gives you more than than the lower scope power costs you.

For anyone just starting out with flags, my suggestion is to reduce the scope power so you can see the flags until you get used to it. With the proper target like the IBS/NBRSA Score targets that help the eye center on the target, you'll be surprised how well you can shoot. Later on, start bringing the power up and moving the near flags off to you side.

For what it's worth..... -Al