flags, Flags, FLAGS!!!!

[BartsBullets]

I dont know what it is. I can say that I tuned a very very good rifle here in Dillon. 5500 ft above sea level. At the low node. It shot zeros, ones, 10 shout groups in the threes, and I could not fix that tune in Missoula 3300 ft I think. I had to go to the high node and it was happy. But in my thin air the low node worked. You tell me, I dont know. Because theres a few outliers that have low node success. I have been thinking more about compensation than just the extra fps. I personally think the high node just compensates better at 1k.

For years when we traveled from the Midwest to shoot the National or Cactus in Arizona. We had to significantly reduce our loads to get our rifles shooting again. We thought we were shooting the low node, but once we started chronographing the bullets we found they were going way faster then what we thought.

I think the bullet just gets pushed around a lot easier at 1000 yards on the lower node.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I like where this is going. When I go to Missoula I could still shoot small but the window was tiny. If you nail it, ok. But got big fast. Im not saying your wrong, but my opinion is its not the velocity. Its the angles. Either way, it works.

 

[BartsBullets]

I like where this is going. When I go to Missoula I could still shoot small but the window was tiny. If you nail it, ok. But got big fast. Im not saying your wrong, but my opinion is its not the velocity. Its the angles. Either way, it works.

Playing with a ballistic Caculator changing only the altitude

BC 531, 103 gr bullet at 2960 drift with a 10 mph crosswinds is is 56.1 inches drop is 254.4 at 5500 ft

Run the same numbers at 3300 ft drift is 62.5 inches and 265.5

That’s significant.

At 3300 ft a velocity of 3020 FPS gets you fairly close to the performance of 2960 at an altitude of 5500.

Hummmmmmm coincidence I think not.

Bart

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The problem has been vertical not horizontal.

 

[BartsBullets]

The problem has been vertical not horizontal.

No. The problem is tune! The tune changes from the higher to lower altitude.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I agree its tune, I just dont think its speed.

 

[BartsBullets]

I agree its tune, I just dont think its speed.

Yep, you need to increase powder at the lower altitude to get back to we’re the gun was shooting.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Bart, the difference is not staying in tune its a different tune. Not tenths but almost a grain. A different node.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, the difference is not staying in tune its a different tune. Not tenths but almost a grain. A different node.

Yes it is almost EXACTLY a grain because you loose nearly a 100 fps at 1000 yards due to the change in altitude. You have to add the extra grain of powder to get the bullet to exit the barrel at the same time.

Next time you tune a gun at 5500. You give me the the load that worked. How fast it was going temp, altitude, air pressure and humidity. Then give me the same info at 3300 and I’ll tell you how much you need to change your load.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Ok, copy that. No argument. Why, dont care. It seems to work.

 

[BartsBullets]

Ok, copy that. No argument. Why, dont care. It seems to work.

You cared earlier!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Not sure how, Im telling you what I see not claiming to know why or worrying about quoting you. Your worried about speed. I can tell you from shooting nothing but 1k with a lot of different stuff not just br that I cant agree. Tune is more important than speed. MV does not change much. At 5500 our mv is no different than 3300. If you think theres a higher node yet, we cant get there.

 

[BartsBullets]

Not sure how, Im telling you what I see not claiming to know why or worrying about quoting you. Your worried about speed. I can tell you from shooting nothing but 1k with a lot of different stuff not just br that I cant agree. Tune is more important than speed. MV does not change much. At 5500 our mv is no different than 3300. If you think theres a higher node yet, we cant get there. But I have guys closer to sea level shooting the low node well.

You were perplexed why your 5500 ft load didn’t work at 3300. I simply told you why. You can except it or not but it doesn’t matter.

There is a BIG change on the bullets performance and the bullet’s velocity is significantly different just in front of the muzzle.

When it comes to competition, I’m worried about tuning the gun and keeping it that way. Once you have the correct seating depth, It is all about the speed and it doesn’t matter if it’s the low, med, or high node.

Also, What the hell does guys shooting low node and sea level have to do with anything. Hell a 6BR does well on a good day. It lives below my low node on the 6BRA.

You realize you could have dropped your load and gun would have re-tuned as well.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You were perplexed why your 5500 ft load didn’t work at 3300. I simply told you why. You can except it or not but it doesn’t matter.

There is a BIG change on the bullets performance and the bullet’s velocity is significantly different just in front of the muzzle.

When it comes to competition, I’m worried about tuning the gun and keeping it that way. Once you have the correct seating depth, It is all about the speed and it doesn’t matter if it’s the low, med, or high node.

Also, What the hell does guys shooting low node and sea level have to do with anything. Hell a 6BR does well on a good day. It lives below my low node on the 6BRA.

You realize you could have dropped your load and gun would have re-tuned as well.

Not really. A lot of us have had this happen. I load at the range. Have covered the range of powder. I have been doing that for over 10 years at 1k. If I tune to the high node at 5500 it holds up at 3300 at least here. No difference in MV between the two at the elevations. You asked me why I thought the different yardages tuned differently. Its not target velocity either. Im not getting beat up. The tune is just gone down there or doesnt repeat when it matters. But some guys do make it work at the low node and lower elevation as well as BRs even slower. So I dont this it's a ballistics thing, I think it's a harmonics thing and how the two nodes compensate. However the ones I can think of that make it work are far more anal with their loading practices than me and do some things differently.

 

[BartsBullets]

Not really. A lot of us have had this happen. I load at the range. Have covered the range of powder. I have been doing that for over 10 years at 1k. If I tune to the high node at 5500 it holds up at 3300 at least here. No difference in MV between the two at the elevations. You asked me why I thought the different yardages tuned differently. Its not target velocity either. Im not getting beat up. The tune is just gone down there. But some guys do make it work at the low node and lower elevation as well as BRs even slower. I dont this it's a ballistics thing, I think it's a harmonics thing and how the two nodes compensate.

I hope you enjoyed the lecture. It’s been awhile since I butt-hurt a Deep Creek Killer such as yourself. I was kind of missing the old days when Tom and I got into it.

Its definitely is a harmonics thing, IT always is. I’m just using another tool as an indicator.

 

[lazyMlazyK]

From the online Dr. Google Ballistician and Brain Surgeon...
"When a flag is on a pole perpendicular to the ground, determine what the the angle between the pole and the bottom side of the flag is, then divide by 4. For example, if the angle of your flag with the pole is approximately 40 degrees, the wind speed is roughly 10 mph."

I like the thought of this, but I think the material, weight, and size of the flag would have to be just right to make this math work out correctly.....right?

 

[JMayo]

No on the laser ... Can't find it past 50 - 75 yrds plus I'd f up and find it with an eye, the temtation is strong !

... it would have to be as big as the rifle barrel to find the dot at 100+. Several tried using them at 50yds when shooting 22. It was a pita & quickly went away.
All have radios or cellphones .... Many are willing to help.
Relationship building exercise !

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I hope you enjoyed the lecture. It’s been awhile since I butt-hurt a Deep Creek Killer such as yourself. I was kind of missing the old days when Tom and I got into it.

Its definitely is a harmonics thing, IT always is. I’m just using another tool as an indicator.

Lol, I don't care enough to get butthurt. You could get tom going, I think he likes it as much as you. It has been a little too calm around here

 

[JEFFPPC]

Bart and Alex, great discussion. Don't quit now, I am enjoying the learning experience!!!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont think theres more I can say. Dave Torgerson holds the 10 match group agg record at the low node in deep creek. You can shoot slow and small. But in my experiance more guys/barrels hold up better at the high node. Last years rifle would keep .3gns in 3" at my home range. The center of the node didnt move at deep creek, it was small but the surrounding powder charges were big. The high node just held up. Maybe I misunderstood Bart, I assumed he was talking external ballistics when he was talking speed. Its not external ballistics that make the difference at 1k, I believe that firmly. Its the harmonics of the particular node that I think matters, so there may not even be a disagreement just poor reading comprehension.