Bart,
Calfee won't like your answer. Once the barrel is "stopped" no further action is required by the tuner. LoL
First Tuner test results
- Thread starter JamesnTN
- Start date
Calfee won't like your answer. Once the barrel is "stopped" no further action is required by the tuner. LoL
The way that I set the tuner on my PPC, actually agrees with Calfee. Once I set my tuner it stays right there.
But there are lots of ways to use one.
Bart
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Thanks to you all that replied and sent me PM's and for offering to help one on one.
I'm pretty sure the tuner brake I used just don't work. I unscrewed it and put on my brake and drove to the Dasher Dome for some friendship get together and shooting. I took the dasher used in the tuner testing here and shot this 3 shot group at 100 yards and then just put it away.
Shot one shot then used the hole as an aiming point then shot the next 3 nearly in one hole.
I witnessed the group. That barrel will shoot!
James in center
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Thanks for the answer Bart. I'm just starting to study tuners.
FWIW, the targets posted on the first page of this thread show an unusual amount of
That's UGLY, James, and not at all representative of what I and most people see with tuners..of any make. FWIW, I don't know who told you to work with "quadrants", but it's not working...obviously. Even for 200 yards, the groups are huge and the gun is clearly(by the no tuner groups) capable of much better. IME with most tuners available, the difference is never as much as the pics show unless something is wrong, i.e. loose or something. What is typical, is for a gun capable of shooting very well into the teens, to shoot high 3's or even low 4's when completely out of tune. In any case, at 200 yards and in good conditions, I feel safe in saying that anything over an inch at 200 tells me something is wrong, somewhere..even given a completely out of tune condition. Don't give up on tuners..they work! Get with me or Rick..or anyone that has a lot of experience using tuners and can give you good face to face advice as to what's going on. If you're moving the tuner more than .001-.002" at a time, you're asking for confusion. Again, speaking from experience here..Typically, there are 3-5 sweet spots in a single revolution. That says a lot if you think about it. Moving in larger increments results in skipping over and missing sweet spots, easily. If you don't want to take my word for it, go over to the BRC board and talk with Gene Beggs. He and I probably have more real life experience with tuners, both using in matches and with in-depth testing/research, than many others, combined. There was a time when Gene recommended moving his tuner in 1/4 turn increments. He has since recanted that advice and now states that .001" of tuner travel does matter and that we have been skipping over tunes by moving so far. Tuners are extremely easy to use...that's the beauty of tuners. You just have to be very methodical with them. You can't just randomly move them and expect consistent results.--Mike
well this is my first time setting up and testing a tuner. My load is 33.8 grains of LRM and a CCI 400 using the 105 Hybrids.
I set up at 200 yards to do the test. I sure didn't like what I saw in today's test. What I did was I started at "0" on the tuner. Per instructions from a highly noted BR guy here I marked the tuner into four quadrants and then I'd shoot 2 shots at Q1 then move to Q2 and so forth. From there I was suppose to work with the best group but not knowing I kept adjusting the tuner back to same Quadrant settings just screwing it out further each time. So what you see in the target is when i show a different Q1-4 that's another turn out on the tuner. Anyhow after myself and my help analyzing what I shot we decided to work within Q4 and Q1 at the end of the second turn and beginning of the third from "0"
So tomorrow I'll go back to Q4 one turn out from "0" and fine tweak it from there. If anyone has added suggestions all is most helpful.
Here's the photo
Now on Q2 bottom left target shows one hole but the other shot for what ever reason nearly went off the paper. I failed to get it in the first pic.
Here's a close up of the shot
Again I'm really not liking anything here this rifle was shooting right at 1" at 500 yards with only a brake installed.
That's UGLY, James, and not at all representative of what I and most people see with tuners..of any make. FWIW, I don't know who told you to work with "quadrants", but it's not working...obviously. Even for 200 yards, the groups are huge and the gun is clearly(by the no tuner groups) capable of much better. IME with most tuners available, the difference is never as much as the pics show unless something is wrong, i.e. loose or something. What is typical, is for a gun capable of shooting very well into the teens, to shoot high 3's or even low 4's when completely out of tune. In any case, at 200 yards and in good conditions, I feel safe in saying that anything over an inch at 200 tells me something is wrong, somewhere..even given a completely out of tune condition. Don't give up on tuners..they work! Get with me or Rick..or anyone that has a lot of experience using tuners and can give you good face to face advice as to what's going on. If you're moving the tuner more than .001-.002" at a time, you're asking for confusion. Again, speaking from experience here..Typically, there are 3-5 sweet spots in a single revolution. That says a lot if you think about it. Moving in larger increments results in skipping over and missing sweet spots, easily. If you don't want to take my word for it, go over to the BRC board and talk with Gene Beggs. He and I probably have more real life experience with tuners, both using in matches and with in-depth testing/research, than many others, combined. There was a time when Gene recommended moving his tuner in 1/4 turn increments. He has since recanted that advice and now states that .001" of tuner travel does matter and that we have been skipping over tunes by moving so far. Tuners are extremely easy to use...that's the beauty of tuners. You just have to be very methodical with them. You can't just randomly move them and expect consistent results.--Mike
Mike,
I believe what advice given was to test shoot in a quadrant and find the best group within the quadrant and then work within that in those small increments. I misunderstood that part and kept twisting the tuner out in same quadrants. Until I shot up 40 rounds ammo and gains nothing.
Could be..I've never found one sweet spot to be any better than another, so I just start by turning the tuner to where "0" is at the top and I have at least a few thou in either direction of adjustment..then shoot at each mark on my tuner. Each mark is basically equal to .001" of tuner travel, as it's threaded 32 TPI and has 32 marks around the tuner. If you think about it, the tune repeats itself over and over throughout the threaded portion. It's very typical for there to be 4 marks between in tune and out of tune. Since it repeats, there are 8 marks between nodes(approx). With 32 marks on the tuner and 8 marks between nodes, there's a 1 in 4 chance of hitting close to a sweet spot at any given setting. If it's completely out of tune, going either direction will make it improve. Having such a small needed range of adjustment really simplifies tuning and learning how far and when to move it. In use during a match, I've never needed to go more than 2 marks on my guns with my tuners and seldom move it after the warm-up..but will if the gun tells me it needs it. Different tuners and guns will vary a little bit but this seems to be generally true with all tuners.
Mike,
I'm the one that was trying to help James set the Tuner. I do look for a Specific Quadrant to work in! Then small adjustments within that quadrant. That method works pretty well for myself, Billy Stevens, Gene Bukys and Larry Costa. Like I said lots of different ways to use a tuner.
I agree that something is wrong with James tuner.
Bart
I think James is now on the right path. I assume you got him headed down the right path.
As I said, I've not been able to distinguish one sweet spot as being better than another. Of course, I don't change the load after settling on a good one and I simply maintain tune with the tuner, using my method.
I tune the load without touching the tuner. Once I establish a good load, I then move the tuner a mark at a time, and watch the groups open and close back up. Typically, there are about 4 marks between in and out of tune within a given node, with my tuner. Once you establish this area in relation to marks moved, I continue to shoot to establish how far it takes to bring it back into tune. Again, this is typically about 4 more marks. So, what I've established now, is how far between in tune, to completely out of tune, and back in again. This is a total range of about .008" of tuner travel and represents total node width in relation to the marks on the tuner. Once done, you can go back to your "in tune" setting and the groups will get bigger if moved either direction from here. Same is true for a completely out of tune condition...If it's completely out, moving either direction will improve it..but in this example, which is very typical of br barrel contours and chamberings, you'll never be more than 4 marks from in tune. In use, 2 marks is a pretty big adjustment to maintain tune. The reason for shooting at each mark for at least 8 marks is to see and familiarize myself when how groups will form and what they look like at any point within the node. This is very useful info for making adjustments when needed. Once familiar with what groups look like at various states of tune, it's very easy to know how far the tuner should be moved to bring it back in.
This all sounds like a buch of constant twisting, but it's not at all. In reality, I seldom need to move it much if at all and that's almost always done during the warm-up and checked between yardages. Another thing is that node width in regard to tuner movement is not indicative of how well it stays in tune during a match. I prefer a tuner design that allows for me to take the rifle completely in or out of tune in a small range of motion because it greatly simplifies the whole process, but again, it has nothing to do with how wide the tune is relative to temps or other conditions.
This is my experience and what works best for me. I look at a tuner that is never touched as simply being a barrel contour that incorporates a dog knot at the muzzle. I work up a load for it just like any other barrel, stay with that load, and only nudge the tuner when needed..similar to changing the load to maintain tune but with less stuff to pack to the range.
--MikeMike,I think James is now on the right path. I assume you got him headed down the right path.
As I said, I've not been able to distinguish one sweet spot as being better than another. Of course, I don't change the load after settling on a good one and I simply maintain tune with the tuner, using my method.
I tune the load without touching the tuner. Once I establish a good load, I then move the tuner a mark at a time, and watch the groups open and close back up. Typically, there are about 4 marks between in and out of tune within a given node, with my tuner. Once you establish this area in relation to marks moved, I continue to shoot to establish how far it takes to bring it back into tune. Again, this is typically about 4 more marks. So, what I've established now, is how far between in tune, to completely out of tune, and back in again. This is a total range of about .008" of tuner travel and represents total node width in relation to the marks on the tuner. Once done, you can go back to your "in tune" setting and the groups will get bigger if moved either direction from here. Same is true for a completely out of tune condition...If it's completely out, moving either direction will improve it..but in this example, which is very typical of br barrel contours and chamberings, you'll never be more than 4 marks from in tune. In use, 2 marks is a pretty big adjustment to maintain tune. The reason for shooting at each mark for at least 8 marks is to see and familiarize myself when how groups will form and what they look like at any point within the node. This is very useful info for making adjustments when needed. Once familiar with what groups look like at various states of tune, it's very easy to know how far the tuner should be moved to bring it back in.
This all sounds like a buch of constant twisting, but it's not at all. In reality, I seldom need to move it much if at all and that's almost always done during the warm-up and checked between yardages. Another thing is that node width in regard to tuner movement is not indicative of how well it stays in tune during a match. I prefer a tuner design that allows for me to take the rifle completely in or out of tune in a small range of motion because it greatly simplifies the whole process, but again, it has nothing to do with how wide the tune is relative to temps or other conditions.
This is my experience and what works best for me. I look at a tuner that is never touched as simply being a barrel contour that incorporates a dog knot at the muzzle. I work up a load for it just like any other barrel, stay with that load, and only nudge the tuner when needed..similar to changing the load to maintain tune but with less stuff to pack to the range.
The Lowly "Dog Knot" method has dominated short range benchrest at all levels for the last several years. Do not underestimate the power of the "Dog Knot"!
Lol! I won't, Bart! You guys didn't need any help, though. Tuners that you never adjust still yield a wider tune window, so the best shooters, who were already amongst the best at shooting AND tuning a rifle during a match, traditionally, just got another leg up on non-tuner shooters by going to tuners..even if you never move it. I'm more interested in how the guy most have never heard of does vs. you guys. A good example is Durward Wofford. He's been lighting it up of late, for a non-HOF'er and he tunes by my method. He's been using tuners for some time but seemingly has turned on of late, huh?
Don't get me wrong, Bart...it's hard to argue with results and you guys at the top deserve all of the credit for going to tuners to stay ahead of the curve, but I've still been testing tuners for way longer than even you have and I simply feel that you're leaving something on the table by tuning traditionally, with a tool on the end of your barrel that can change all of that. But I'm a nobody who shoots lowly score, not Benchrest. I've tried it your way! For me, my method works better than yours. Obviously, you feel just the opposite. Good! If I ever start shooting Benchrest, I'll be glad of that! Lol!
Lol! I won't, Bart! You guys didn't need any help, though. Tuners that you never adjust still yield a wider tune window, so the best shooters, who were already amongst the best at shooting AND tuning a rifle during a match, traditionally, just got another leg up on non-tuner shooters by going to tuners..even if you never move it. I'm more interested in how the guy most have never heard of does vs. you guys. A good example is Durward Wofford. He's been lighting it up of late, for a non-HOF'er and he tunes by my method. He's been using tuners for some time but seemingly has turned on of late, huh?
Don't get me wrong, Bart...it's hard to argue with results and you guys at the top deserve all of the credit for going to tuners to stay ahead of the curve, but I've still been testing tuners for way longer than even you have and I simply feel that you're leaving something on the table by tuning traditionally, with a tool on the end of your barrel that can change all of that. But I'm a nobody who shoots lowly score, not Benchrest. I've tried it your way! For me, my method works better than yours. Obviously, you feel just the opposite. Good! If I ever start shooting Benchrest, I'll be glad of that! Lol!
Mike,
Don't be so sure about more tuner experience. I was playing with tuners before Gene Beggs came out with his "discs of doom" and "chop stick adjusters!" I've always been interested in anything that I think will improve my shooting.
I work very hard on every aspect of it.
I don't want to take anything away from anyones success. It's not easy to win at any level, but
There's a vast difference between what works on the on the local circuit and National level.
Bart
I don't understand your comment about local or national circuits. A tune is a tune regardless of the level of competition and or the number of shooters.
BenPrefected
The level of competition is a lot different. The level of "competitive tune" that is attained is often higher. The tiny Aggs you have to shoot to win are getting smaller and smaller.
It's one thing to be a College football star it another to play and make it in the NFL. It's a different level.
Bart
...but the equipment is the same.
Bart, yes you do work hard..and it shows. You have a great place to test and shoot, resources to afford the testing and skill to prove things out. I do wish to give you tons of credit where it's due. You've also become a valuable supplier for bullets and br quality jackets for the br bullet making crowd. No doubt, you are a valuable asset to the br community.
My first tuner was a brass ring with the id bored to match the taper of a hv contour barrel, slid down about 8 inches from the muzzle. I saw enough benefit from that little thing, that I almost immediately went down the road of using an making more effective and better thought out muzzle devices. It certainly didn't take long at all to determine that they were of great value..IMHO. Without good data available for their use, I tested methodically and shot at each mark on every tuner, of many different designs and weights. Behind the muzzle, beyond the muzzle, different thread pitches, locking designs, materials...you name it.
That first one..the brass ring was not adjustable, but it still showed me that there were benefits of a mass on the barrel, be it adjustable or not. I quickly went to a tuner that was at the muzzle. There wasn't any definitive info on how to use them available at the time. Soon afterward, there was some, but it often conflicted, with what other people who were supposed to be "in the know" recommended . So, I'm left with very positive first hand experience with tuners but a lot of confusion and varying instruction on how to use them. Thankfully, having went about it on my own to some degree, before there were these conflicting instructions, I had seen that very small adjustments did in fact matter. Still, hearing from the experts that so little movement couldn't have a meaningful impact, I eventually gave in to the pressure and tried it their way. Immediately, I saw that if I followed some of their instructions, I was skipping over what I had already found to be sweet spots where the gun would just drill. That left me with one option and that was to prove to myself what worked best for me. Obviously, as I've stated many times on here and other shooting forums, what I found was that very small increments made a big difference. I then had to know all I could about what was going on and why, so I've been testing and building tuners ever since and applying what I have learned to my tuners and have shared what I have found. I've gone as far as having some vibration analysis testing done at the University of Cincinnati. I'd like to do more as time and money allow, from both myself and the professor there that did the testing. Hopefully, we can get back on it at some point in the future.
That said, I agree with what was mentioned earlier, that a good tune is a good tune, be it at the national level, local level, or at my test range. I do wish I had a tunnel, though. I'm not sure what " national level" even means. I've shot for national points and at numerous national championship matches and finished in the top 10 in IBS points. Is that what you mean?--Mike
Please be more specific. What does "national level" mean, then?
When it is all said and done if it won't print on paper it won't win locally or national level . Based on rimfire they tune the barrel to the load . Because they don't have a choice .
I find center fire works the same way. You can tune a center fire by finding a load that shoots low Es and tune it with a tuner . Most tuners have too much movement because of the threads per inch. . You will find in a tune you will two distinct patterns from the point of aim one up the other down the can be right or left also. But with bad Es you will never see it . Es is only vertical The problem with Es we never had a crony accurate enough to give a exact reading . But I know when I get a Es under 5 I have better load then one with 10 . In time center fire will be like rim fire . Win with a tuner or loose without . Regardless who tuners your using make very small movements . Larry
I find center fire works the same way. You can tune a center fire by finding a load that shoots low Es and tune it with a tuner . Most tuners have too much movement because of the threads per inch. . You will find in a tune you will two distinct patterns from the point of aim one up the other down the can be right or left also. But with bad Es you will never see it . Es is only vertical The problem with Es we never had a crony accurate enough to give a exact reading . But I know when I get a Es under 5 I have better load then one with 10 . In time center fire will be like rim fire . Win with a tuner or loose without . Regardless who tuners your using make very small movements . Larry
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