Fireforming 250 Ackley Imp "bulletless" with just powder (no filler)

[Brians356]

I have fire-formed 250 AI from both 250 Savage and 22-250 brass "bulletless" w/ Bullseye and pistol primer, but always with wad, inert filler (corn grits) and wax plug.

Has anyone here used just powder, and how much powder did it take to form nice sharp shoulder corners?
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[alf]

Never did just powder, but have done a bunch with a small piece of butt wipe to hold the powder in place.

 

[Brians356]

Never did just powder, but have done a bunch with a small piece of butt wipe to hold the powder in place.

That tissue alone is insignificant. If it was 250 AI, how much of which powder?
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[AckleymanII]

I have always used Bullseye and cream of wheat/House of Autry corn meal and a tuft of paper towel, works great. I work up a load to fire form just like using bullets to get a 95% fire form or better.

 

[alf]

That tissue alone is insignificant. If it was 250 AI, how much of which powder?
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Sorry, no 250 AI. Info was more of a general statement for using just TP. You do need to work up a load though.

 

[Brians356]

I have always used Bullseye and cream of wheat/House of Autry corn meal and a tuft of paper towel, works great. I work up a load to fire form just like using bullets to get a 95% fire form or better.

Just for comparison using filler, what is your 95% or better charge of Bullseye?

 

[germanlongbow]

I just fireform while working up a load. Has worked well so far. 20-250 ai , 243 ai, 260 ai, 280 ai, and 338 lapua mag ai. Scott

 

[Brians356]

I just fireform while working up a load.

A "load" is with a bullet, yes? WADR that's a different topic, but thanks!
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[Brians356]

I use H414, but with a 85 grain bullet.

That's great, thanks. Different topic, but thanks all the same.
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[RW]

That's great, thanks. Different topic, but thanks all the same.
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I have never used Bullseye but I use unique to form my 250 ai but I still use COW with Tissue paper for a wad just to make sure the powder doesn't fall out, I have also used 22-250 to make 250 ai RW

 

[Hntndad]

Brian356,
I've recently used unique to fireform 243 Ackley brass. Although it turned out pretty well I believe it's a bit slow. If given the choice again, I would use bullseye. You need to work up a bullet-less fire forming load. Be prepared to waist some cases as the lighter loads will not produce ideal formed cases and turn up short on head to shoulder length. I tried quite a few with just powder and a soap cap to hold it in and was not happy with the consistency of case measurements. I went to lowes and bought a 12" concrete form tube. Filled it with regular wall insulation and duct taped both ends. Poked a hole in the business end. Inserted barrel and fired. Wife couldn't hear me in the next room. (When does she ever??)
Anyway, I learned a lot with this experience. Bullet less fireforming requires a TIGHT fitting case and a swift kick in the ass to form them correctly. Anything less will be much less productive and you will not be happy with the consistency of your cases.
I will more then likely fireform in the future using just a couple grains less then my normal worked up Ackley load.

 

[centershot]

Does this method harm or wear the barrel? This would pertain to the throat area. I assume you are doing this to save the price of the bullets and wear on the rifling.

 

[Brians356]

Brian356,
I've recently used unique to fireform 243 Ackley brass. Although it turned out pretty well I believe it's a bit slow. If given the choice again, I would use bullseye. You need to work up a bullet-less fire forming load. ...

Fellas, I have formed many, many AI cases "bulletless" using the COW and wax plug method. I am asking how much more powder is required to omit the filler, just using powder. Sure, I can "waist" some cases trial and error, but someone around here once stated "increase powder charge X% if you omit the filler and it works".

 

[Brians356]

Does this method harm or wear the barrel? This would pertain to the throat area. I assume you are doing this to save the price of the bullets and wear on the rifling.

Nope. I'm doing it because it forms a better shoulder (for me) than a regular load with bullet. And my chamber was not cut a bit short as Ackley advised (no "crush" at the soulder/neck junction) so when I shoot a real load, I get a lot of stretching at the case web. With Bullseye and lightly lubed case body (Rem Oil) it really spanks the shoulder open, and I get no stretching at the web, and nice pointed shoulder.
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[Brians356]

Does this method harm or wear the barrel?

It must be a small fraction of the wear normal full loads w/ a bullet would induce, don't you think?
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[Dusty Stevens]

The only cases ive ever formed for my 250ack were nickel plated (all i could get) i bought 50 cases, filled to the top with bullseye with just enough room for a tp plug to hold it in. Sized for a very slight crush fit and pointed to the sky all 50 came out just like they had been formed with a bullet. I do not use any type of filler and use this exact method for all my AI cases. Of course im not advocating you do this as you need to work up loads and do not use anybody elses. Thats why i havent posted a reply until now

 

[Dave Berg]

I use Bullseye to fireform 30 BR cases. It takes a lot of powder as in right up to the neck/shoulder junction. Back the powder off and the results are not as good. I put a fourth of a sheet of TP in and pack it down just to keep the powder in place.

Not sure about barrel wear as I use an old Savage varmint barrel that was re-purposed. I can tell you that after ten rounds on a cold day the barrel is very hot - as in burn your hand hot.

 

[Brians356]

The only cases ive ever formed for my 250ack were nickel plated (all i could get) i bought 50 cases, filled to the top with bullseye with just enough room for a tp plug to hold it in. Sized for a very slight crush fit and pointed to the sky all 50 came out just like they had been formed with a bullet.

Thanks, Dusty, for the first actual response to my question. I feel a case full of Bullseye is probably a lot more than you needed, but that's me just think aloud.

Someone once comment (somewhere, can't find it) that to omit the filler, they increased the Bullseye charge 50% or whatever. And the conventional wisdom with insert filler is to start with 10% of case capacity of the fast powder. So maybe 15% to 20% capacity for powder alone would be in the ballpark.
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[Brians356]

I use Bullseye to fireform 30 BR cases. It takes a lot of powder as in right up to the neck/shoulder junction. Back the powder off and the results are not as good.

Did you use a pistol primer, as is usually stipulated? (I wonder if a rifle primer would ignite the Bullseye too slowly.)

If it really takes nearly a case full of Bullseye alone, I would just keep using inert filler.
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[Dusty Stevens]

I never experimented bryan. Im sure most went out the barrel unburned but i wanted formed cases so i did what always works. Did the same on some 375 AI the other day. Made beautiful cases