fireforming Russion 220 brass to form 6PCC

[knguyen]

background:
just bought a wonderful new rifle from member: thanks Gabe:
6ppc, 263 neck,
Question is regarding fireforming Russion 220 brass in my fireform barrel.
I have neck turned the russian brass and now it fits very nicely in the chamber with bolt closed.
i do not have any bullseye powder to use to fireform the brass, I have instead Accurate Number 2 pistol powder.
technique is load up to about the near neck and cap the brass with some wax or modeling clay and then fireform the brass.
Do i still fill up the pistol powder (accurate number 2) to near the neck and fire as normal ?
would accurate number powder be appropiate to use given i do not have any bullseye?

thanks alot,
Khanh
new 6PPC owner

 

[tenring]

You are making it too complicated. First trim and champfer all the brass to same dimensions, about 010" less than reamer print. Then expand necks with 6mm expander. Use a lot of lubricant on inner necks and expander iron. Run the brass thru a neck or F/L die with your favorite bushing in place i.e., .262, .261, .260 etc.
Fire form the brass and your are finished.

 

[alf]

Question is regarding fireforming Russion 220 brass in my fireform barrel.

I used to just load up the 22 Russion brass with a 22 bullet and regular rifle powder and shoot mine in a .262" necked dedicated fireform 6 PPC barrel. Then neck them up the rest of the way with a 6mm mandrel, turn, trim, and away you go.....

 

[LHSmith]

IMHO- FF using your chosen powder ( H-322 -great for learning, Lt-32, 8208) with a 65-68 grain bullet seated well into the lands (grease bolt cocking cam and lugs for this). To get a headstart on the bell curve with such an accurate gun, I highly recommend Tony Boyer's book, Mike Ratigans book, and Jack Neary's Youtube presentation on "tuning" the 6 PPC. You will find that often FF loads are amazingly accurate, and as such can be also used as a excercise in learning how to read "conditions. FWIW, I would not even consider using a decent barrel for FF with pistol powder.
I recommend a light coat of oil on the cases shoulder/neck for initial FF- be sure to swab chamber clean when finished. Also it will take a second firing with a near max load to obtain complete FF.

 

[knguyen]

thank you for all the input:
a: without neck turning the russion lapua 220 brass it will not chamber in the rifle, the bolt handle will not shut close.

the brass that was given to me by previous owner: is lapua 220 brass which is turned to about 0.00950 and trimmed to 1.490: this brass chambers easily
with the new lapua brass it will not chamber: it measures: 1.508 length, and unless i trim it and neck turn it will NOT chamber. so i neck turned to 0.0095 and trimmed to 1.505 and it chambered (i necked turned down to neck shoulder junction and about 1/32 into the shoulder) just fine.

am i missing something or doing something wrong?
thank
khanh

 

[jimcasey01]

Have you set the shoulder back on the new brass before turning? Be careful about trimming length, as the brass will decrease in length as you fire form. Even with no trimming, much of your brass will finish well under 1.490. I have used Unique and Bullseye with a wax plug, no bullet, so I suspect that your powder will work.

 

[knguyen]

Jim,
i have not set shoulder back: i just trimmed and neck turned and then the plan was to fireform it this weekend in my rifle.
(both barrels are cut from same reamer)

good point about trimming:
the previous owner gave me his brass which has been fired in the rifle and it has been neck turned,
reading are:
a: length: 1.490
b: neck turned to 0.00950 thickness

what length do you think i should trim brass to knowing that it will shorten as i fireform it?
currently the lapua brass 220 russian measures: 1.5708,
i just turned last last only 5 pieces of brass to: necked turned to 0.00950 to match the previous owners neck thickness and trimmed it to 1.490 ( now i realize based on what you just told me, it will likely become too short after i fireform it,)

thanks
khanh

 

[LHSmith]

Don't trim until after FF. Trim to ~ 1.490". Not all PPC chambers will require shoulder set back. If the bolt happens to close with the least resistance ....then by all means set back the shoulder only enough until all resistance disappears - firing pin assembly removed....if you don't have the tool to do so - get one since you'll be using it a lot.
Some quick math : typ. custom 6 ppc bullet dia. ~ 0.2435 + 0.0095 (2) = 0.2625 for a 0.263 neck chamber is NFG in my opinion. Best accuracy is achieved with 0.002" - .003" total clearance between loaded round and chamber neck. Foolproof method is to measure actual loaded round vs. doing math as this method factors in true bullet diameter.
If you already made a few too short, simply use them as foulers, or batch them and shoot them only as a group (i.e. don't mix them with the longer cases.)

 

[jimcasey01]

Jim,
i have not set shoulder back: i just trimmed and neck turned and then the plan was to fireform it this weekend in my rifle.
(both barrels are cut from same reamer)

good point about trimming:
the previous owner gave me his brass which has been fired in the rifle and it has been neck turned,
reading are:
a: length: 1.490
b: neck turned to 0.00950 thickness

what length do you think i should trim brass to knowing that it will shorten as i fireform it?
currently the lapua brass 220 russian measures: 1.5708,
i just turned last last only 5 pieces of brass to: necked turned to 0.00950 to match the previous owners neck thickness and trimmed it to 1.490 ( now i realize based on what you just told me, it will likely become too short after i fireform it,)

thanks
khanh

If you must trim to get the bolt to close, remove .001 on length, debur outside, and try to chamber again. I suspect that -.001 is all you will need. If you need to remove more, do another -.001. I believe that will be the most that you will need to remove. One of my friends had a similar problem on a couple of pieces of brass, he used brute force to get the brass to chamber the first time. I am not advocating that. I suspect that if you sized the top of the neck down a few thousands, that would cure it for the first firing. After that you will not have the problem, as the cases have started to shorten.

LHSmith has a good point in the above post regard neck thickness. I use a .262 chamber, and turn to .0086 wall thickness.

 

[alf]

without neck turning the russion lapua 220 brass it will not chamber in the rifle, the bolt handle will not shut close.

The reason they don't, but do fit after neck turning onto the shoulder, is you're removing brass from the neck/shoulder juncture.

You have to use your full length die to set that area back, getting a crush fit, to chamber virgin 220 Russion brass for proper fireforming.

 

[Tim Singleton]

thank you for all the input:
a: without neck turning the russion lapua 220 brass it will not chamber in the rifle, the bolt handle will not shut close.

the brass that was given to me by previous owner: is lapua 220 brass which is turned to about 0.00950 and trimmed to 1.490: this brass chambers easily
with the new lapua brass it will not chamber: it measures: 1.508 length, and unless i trim it and neck turn it will NOT chamber. so i neck turned to 0.0095 and trimmed to 1.505 and it chambered (i necked turned down to neck shoulder junction and about 1/32 into the shoulder) just fine.

am i missing something or doing something wrong?
thank
khanh

I believe as several others have said. All you need to do is expand and neck turn to proper neck thickness for your chamber. You know this from the brass provided with the rifle.
The factory brass neck thickness is why they won't chamber IMO not the length of the brass. I would think the reamer is at least a 1.510" chamber
Try neck turning down into shoulder slightly without trimming length see if it will chamber. Like the other guys are telling you it will shrink back when fired. If you have to don't trim back length more than the 1.505 you are. You'll be fine

 

[knguyen]

just went home during lunch and turned 3 pieces of brass:
length: is 1.508 before trimming, then i trimmed to 1.501 and neck turned to 0.0095, cut into the shoulder a little bit:
when i did this the lapua russian 220 brass chambered pretty easily with minimal bolt pressure.

above 1.502 or higher, it was really hard to close bolt handle, gotta force pretty darn hard.

sounds reasonable in terms of trimmed length for now?
i know the case will shrink as i fireform
thanks
khanh

 

[jimcasey01]

That seems short to me, but measuring equipment can give varying readings, and we have many different chambers. Try it and see what happens. I have not kept a log of my loss in length, but I believe that it was in the area of .015-.018. So far I have never had to trim a case prior to FF. Good luck on your endeavor. Let us know what happens.
Jim

 

[LHSmith]

You have to use your full length die to set that area back, getting a crush fit, to chamber virgin 220 Russion brass for proper fireforming.

You have virgin brass with a .22 cal neck, trying to chamber in a 6 ppc chamber........there is all kids of room there....the necks could be 1" long and they'll never cause interference.
You need to bump the shoulder back just a tad until they chamber. Don't trim neck length until after FF. Another absolute must have in addition to the bolt tool is a headspace measuring tool like Hornady or Sinclair. To a newbee it is hard to understand how that gradual sloping shoulder on the .220 Russian case will not just slip in the huge PPC chamber, but in all the PPC's I have worked with, some degree of bump was required - if one does not want to use the bolt and chamber as a die= BAD.

 

[knguyen]

update:
today got home and realized:
a: no more trimming at all was done to any new brass,
i just neck turned to 0.0093 and into the shoulder just a little bit, and every piece of brass i did this for chambered with very little resistent at all of the bolt

so i will only trim after i fireform the brass in the second barrel(dedicated barrel for fireforming).

this fireform should get the brass near the right shape for the chamber.

My last question is:
i do not have any Bullseye powder to fireform, Instead i have Accurate Number 2 pistol powder: which i will use:
QUESTION: in reading 6ppc fireform method, it SAIDS TO LOAD UP TO THE NECK AND THEN PLUG WITH A WAX OR MODELING CLAY AND THE SHOOT IT TO HELP FIREFORM
I KNOW BULLSEYE AND ACCURATE NUMBER 2 POWDER ARE NOT THE SAME POWDER, SO SHOULD I LOAD UP TO THE NECK WITH MY ACCURATE POWDER AND FIRE AS STATED.
i know that without an actual bullet seated into the brass the pressures will ge alot lower then simply loading with powder and wax plug and firing it.
therefore can i feel safe in loading up the lapua 220 russian brass with my accurate number 2 powder to the neck or maybe less powder and then fire it and see how the brass changes shape?
for those who have used this load powder and fireform with a wax plug or modeling clay: How many times did it take to get the brass to fireform to the shape/shoulder angle as a normal 6PPC brass?

thanks again for all members help with tips
khanh

 

[jimcasey01]

Try going just below the neck with your powder, try one. Then add slightly more for each of the next cases, until you get too much pressure (I doubt that this will ever happen). When they fill out nicely, with no pressure signs, that is the magic amount. I sincerely doubt that you can get enough powder into the case, using a wax plug and no bullet, to have any pressure problems. The wax vaporizes immediately, so very little pressure. I mount my rifle on a rest and bag, using only one hand to secure the rifle on recoil. It is very mild. If you could do it at night, I bet it would look pretty impressive, flame coming out of the barrel! I do this twice, but you could use a bullet and a normal powder load (not the pistol powder)for the second firing. They should shoot very accurately on the second go round.

 

[knguyen]

Jim, thanks for your advice
will proceed forward with fireform next day or so
it would way cool to see the flames at nightime from the barrel, but i would probably get arrested where I live (if i do it at nightime)
thanks alot
khanh