Fireforming 220 Russian/Bolt Click Question

[Ccrider]

If this derails the op. Please disregard, but this subject has always amazed me. Bare in mind I have never been involved in this process, but how do you know how much and what kind of pistol powder do you use? Are you simply plugging the neck or filling the remaining volume of the case with whatever filler you are using?

I do not think it matters much what type of pistol powder you use. If you look long enough you will probably find someone using the powder you have available. I am using clays because that is what I had available.
The idea is to plug the neck so that the cartridge will build up pressure and to keep the powder from wasting out. I have never tried it without a plug holding the gun straight up but my guess is that it would likely work to some extent. Do now, I am going to stay with using the tissue because I like the idea of paper residue rather than modelers clay residue.

 

[butchlambert]

I do not think it matters much what type of pistol powder you use. If you look long enough you will probably find someone using the powder you have available. I am using clays because that is what I had available.
The idea is to plug the neck so that the cartridge will build up pressure and to keep the powder from wasting out. I have never tried it without a plug holding the gun straight up but my guess is that it would likely work to some extent. Do now, I am going to stay with using the tissue because I like the idea of paper residue rather than modelers clay residue.

Don't matter if you have a fireforming barrel. The wax hardly builds up at all after 50 rounds. You can patch it out or whatever to clean afterwards. As mentioned before, I use a 22 cal barrel to form my 30BR.
COW, no I don't like the smell and mess. Toilet paper wouldn't allow enough pressure in my estimation.

 

[Ccrider]

@butchlambert, I have a barrel that I had rechambered that I am using as a fireforming barrel and will use to work up a load before going to my new barrel. Both chambers are the same so I am hoping that the loads will be close.

 

[rsmithsr50]

I have fire formed
with fast pistol powder aa2
no plug what so ever...not even issue
straight up and pull the trigger
great cases.
not all ranges like the idea of pulling a trigger with a gun pointed straight up, even when told what is going on.
so I have gone to a very small wad of tissue.
chamber and bbl may get pretty dirty, be prepared to be able to clean both.

Don't matter if you have a fireforming barrel. The wax hardly builds up at all after 50 rounds. You can patch it out or whatever to clean afterwards. As mentioned before, I use a 22 cal barrel to form my 30BR.
COW, no I don't like the smell and mess. Toilet paper wouldn't allow enough pressure in my estimation.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I do not think it matters much what type of pistol powder you use. If you look long enough you will probably find someone using the powder you have available. I am using clays because that is what I had available.
The idea is to plug the neck so that the cartridge will build up pressure and to keep the powder from wasting out. I have never tried it without a plug holding the gun straight up but my guess is that it would likely work to some extent. Do now, I am going to stay with using the tissue because I like the idea of paper residue rather than modelers clay residue.

IME, yes, you can build a lot of peak pressures without a bullet. I prefer and recommend cotton or paper towel to hold the powder in the case and, enough to keep the powder held somewhat in position at the rear of the case.

I've done it with and without lube. I'm leaning toward just too much pressure with your charge and the clay, rather than lack of lube.

I wish you'd try a couple with tissue and no lube and report what you get. But I do think lube is a good idea when doing this unless using a false shoulder or very tight headspace. FWIW.

It's pretty amazing how much pressure these really fast powders can make without a bullet and FAST! Fill rate can change pressures a lot so I like that you're case is pretty full, but I thjink it may be a tad too much. I try for cases that are at my trim to length. I can usually get there and consistently,(reasonably) with just the right powder charge and tissue to keep it in place. If it shifts around a lot in the case, there is a lot more exposed area of the powder column, and it makes more pressure. For me, consistency came from more tissue and less powder.

 

[Ccrider]

IME, yes, you can build a lot of peak pressures without a bullet. I prefer and recommend cotton or paper towel to hold the powder in the case and, enough to keep the powder held somewhat in position at the rear of the case.

I've done it with and without lube. I'm leaning toward just too much pressure with your charge and the clay, rather than lack of lube.

I wish you'd try a couple with tissue and no lube and report what you get. But I do think lube is a good idea when doing this unless using a false shoulder or very tight headspace. FWIW.

It's pretty amazing how much pressure these really fast powders can make without a bullet and FAST! Fill rate can change pressures a lot so I like that you're case is pretty full, but I thjink it may be a tad too much. I try for cases that are at my trim to length. I can usually get there and consistently,(reasonably) with just the right powder charge and tissue to keep it in place. If it shifts around a lot in the case, there is a lot more exposed area of the powder column, and it makes more pressure. For me, consistency came from more tissue and less powder.

Thanks Mike. This makes since. I will give it a spin with tissue and no lube and see if there is a difference. I hate to change two things at once. Hard to identify the cause.

Then I will start reducing the charge until I get close to my trim length-1.495. As I reflect, I am pretty sure I was using too much powder. The necks were turning in a little at the mouth from being forced into the chamber.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks Mike. This makes since. I will give it a spin with tissue and no lube and see if there is a difference. I hate to change two things at once. Hard to identify the cause.

Then I will start reducing the charge until I get close to my trim length-1.495. As I reflect, I am pretty sure I was using too much powder. The necks were turning in a little at the mouth from being forced into the chamber.

Bingo! I have done the same thing. I'd reduce the powder charge.

 

[rsmithsr50]

the one big benefit is a full length case
my trim length is 1.545
my reamer supports this.
if you have a short chamber(neck) almost silly to fire form this way.

just 2 cents worth

Thanks Mike. This makes since. I will give it a spin with tissue and no lube and see if there is a difference. I hate to change two things at once. Hard to identify the cause.

Then I will start reducing the charge until I get close to my trim length-1.495. As I reflect, I am pretty sure I was using too much powder. The necks were turning in a little at the mouth from being forced into the chamber.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

the one big benefit is a full length case
my trim length is 1.545
my reamer supports this.
if you have a short chamber(neck) almost silly to fire form this way.

just 2 cents worth

...and the necks come out very straight and consistent. IMO, that's the biggest benefit unless you have a long neck reamer that necessitates some way of getting the neck lenth to grow.

 

[Ccrider]

Ok. I have the answer. I was using a bit too much powder. I backed off on the charge and the brass is no longer clicking and is no longer turning in at the mouth. I tried the reduced amount with lubed and clean dry cases. They both came out the same and work fine. I can not back off enough to get to trim length but I’m ok with that. When I back off that far, it will not blow the cases out or form the shoulders enough.
I will watch the first batch close and toss it if I see any signs of problems.

In the future, for anyone using pistol powder and a plug, I recommend that you work up to see how much powder is necessary to fireform, rather than filling to the shoulder. It will save you some time and brass.

Thanks everyone for your help.
Charles

 

[rsmithsr50]

not GROW, they do not shrink

...and the necks come out very straight and consistent. IMO, that's the biggest benefit unless you have a long neck reamer that necessitates some way of getting the neck lenth to grow.

 

[Webster]

Lubing cases when f-forming does all sorts of good things. -Al

Plenty of guys FF with COW or Tissue. Nothig to hold the case head against the bolt face???

 

[AlNyhus]

Plenty of guys FF with COW or Tissue. Nothig to hold the case head against the bolt face???

You bet...lots of ways to f-form cases. The extractor does a good job of keeping the case head fairly snug to the bolt face. -Al

 

[Shooter13]

Butch,I agree and do as you except, although I have used no bullet I went back to using one, I am happier with the results. With or without, definitely no oil. Clean dry case and clean dry chamber.

I think Tony Boyer stated to use a light oil to FF?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Plenty of guys FF with COW or Tissue. Nothig to hold the case head against the bolt face???

In a ppc you must bump them to get them to fit in the first place so we bump them to fit tight. Since the extractor wont hold a case against the bolt face you must have a tight case or use a false shoulder to get real consistent lengths. A jammed bullet will not hold it tight enough.