Fireform with "heavy" bullets...

[feffer]

I'm forming 30 Major cases from 6.5 Grendell Lapua brass. Process is simple: expand neck, turn necks and then fireform. My 112 gr Bib match bullets are kind of expensive, so I'd like to fireform either with COW (cream of wheat) or cheaper bullets. Here's the rub, I have a bulk lot of old 180 gr Rem Cor-Lokt bullets that I'd like to use. Is that practical? Powder suggestions?

I've used the COW method before. Is Unique OK to use? I'd work up charge, of course. How about sealing the mouth of the case with modelling clay? It can be rolled to about 1/8" thickness on a plate of glass and pressed into the case cookie cutter fashion. Saves wadding up tissue...comments.

 

[Shynloco]

I'm not here to claim expertise in fireforming new casings. But I've always believed that I want to fireform casings using components that mirror the loads I'll be using for target shooting. And ain't no way in heck that I'm using something that people ordinarily eat, like COW. Yes it saves money, but I do not trust or believe that COW would create the same pressures and produce the energy that a seated bullet would. True don't waste your 112 BIB's. But there are enough "cheap" bullets (even seconds) that can be bought/used as an appropriate substitute for the real McCoy. And as for powder, I've never used pistol powder for fireforming my rifle shot brass. Take a look in the reloading manual for the powder you intend to use with the 112's (yes I know Randy's bullets aren't in any reloading manual - look for a corresponding bullet weight) and choose an alternative from that list as use that for fireforming. Just my .02 worth.

Alex

 

[M-61]

In a different case but looking to do the same thing I used 30 carbine FMJ bullets. I had them in stock for some unknown reason and was never going to use them. They are 110 grain. What surprised me was that 100 yards they were somewhat accurate and the cases formed just fine.
In answer to your question I would say why not use those 180's? Like Alex I am not claiming to be an expert in case forming, merely saying what worked for me. And I don't even eat creme of wheat.

 

[R.Morehouse]

That's what I do. For a 6.5 wildcat I use the same powder as my match loads with 142SMK's that shoot extremely well fireforming then use Bob C.'s 141's for my finished load.

 

[feffer]

I've always used the similar components method when forming brass for the 6PPC, so I understand the reasoning. I've used various "no-bullet" methods for improved cartridges in the past with less than ideal results. If I had some lighter "throw-away" 30 cal bullets on hand, I would gladly use them (and probably wouldn't have posted) but I don't and hate buying some just for fire-forming. This case/rifle seems to need at least 2 firings to be match-worthy. I would really like to use the 180's for that first firing. Is there any real reason (besides "my druthers") not to use them?

 

[mac86951]

I'd recommend some 125gr nosler seconds for fire forming. Something with COL near to the BIBs and then you're not seating a 180 on top of the primer.

 

[feffer]

OK, that sounds like a reasonable option

 

[Shynloco]

OK, that sounds like a reasonable option

I've got some .30 Cal Sierra 110's FB's just sitting around. PM inbound.

Alex

 

[Brians356]

You don't need COW or any inert filler at all, or a case mouth seal, to form "bulletless". Just use about 15% case capacity of something like Bullseye and a pistol (!) primer. Keep the cases upright in a plastic ammo box while transporting (wedge a sheet of foam or something under the box lid to secure the case mouths, if you feel the box might tip over, or stuff a tissue wad or cigarette filter into each neck for transport.) Then keep the rifle pointed skyward while loading and firing them. It's a bit awkward but a lot less hassle than tissue wad, COW, wax plug, etc.

I've tried fireforming Ackley cases with both with bullets and without, and found I got better shoulder points using bulletless. The fast pistol powder really spanks the brass into shape. Best results, though, when the case body was lubed very slightly with Rem Oil or the like.

 

[P72]

I am old and cautious - I start with 10 percent case capacity using a fast burning pistol powder and use a layer of TP on top of powder then rice (big fat grains) instead of COW then the whole works held in place with a plug of soft candle wax.

Dumping a small load of pistol powder into my rifle magazine is messy, thus all the filler & wax plug.

I don't know about lubing cases, possibly any lubricant might be ineffective at the pressures needed to expand the brass. All of my improved chambers were cut short meaning the un fire formed brass has a crush fit - bullets not needed.

I brush out the chamber after every shot but would not need to do this should I skip the rice part.

 

[BartsBullets]

Do me a favor, If you use pistol powder to fireform with. Once you're done reloading for fire-forming put that crap away from your other rifle powder as far as possible. Don't leave it in your powder measure or anywhere close by.

I've had two friends blow their rifles all to hell. Both By slipping up and loading a case full of pistol powder after using it for fire forming. Both were lucky and lived but one lost an eye.

Bart

 

[Shynloco]

Do me a favor, If you use pistol powder to fireform with. Once you're done reloading for fire-forming put that crap away from your other rifle powder as far as possible. Don't leave it in your powder measure or anywhere close by.

I've had two friends blow their rifles all to hell. Both By slipping up and loading a case full of pistol powder after using it for fire forming. Both were lucky and lived but one lost an eye.

Bart

Which is just another reason why some of these "home brew" stunts in reloading are dangerous. Bart's warning is NOT the first time I've heard horror stories like that when people use powders not designed for that use. But some will continue to brew their own stuff (no matter the warnings) as well as the continued horror stories that will happen. Like I've always said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Happy reloading ALL!

Alex

 

[Coolhand]

I completed my first foray into fire forming cases recently, this web site and its members provided all the info I could want. My observations thus far; Having tried the filler-plug and pistol powder method which worked quite well, I much prefer forming with heavy bullets and a fairly stiff load of appropriate powder. This pistol powder method worked fine but shoulders were rounded, perhaps a few more grains may have solved this.
For my .220 A.I , I was forming Norma cases and used 60 grain Hornady soft points which were going cheap and not a bullet I planned to use anyway. The cases formed beautifully and I actually shot some reasonable groups to.

regards
Mike.

 

[Preacher]

Another vote for shooting what you'll be using, other than the high dollar bullets...

 

[P72]

My loading policy demands that one powder container be on bench - there are many ways to blow up a rifle but a big rifle case full of pistol powder would be the most horrific. Damage can be done with loads more than 12 percent capacity. Yes, "home brew stunt" , (I like that) equates with undocumented and when I fire-form for my .375 wild cat the ammo production pace is real slow - sort of like working with ordinance. .375 bullets are pricy and every day presents risks. Should you need more reassurance the rifle could be strapped down to a discarded tire and fired remotely with a string tied to the trigger (take the scope off).

 

[Brians356]

I am old and cautious - I start with 10 percent case capacity using a fast burning pistol powder and use a layer of TP on top of powder then rice (big fat grains) instead of COW then the whole works held in place with a plug of soft candle wax.

So am I, but there's little need for caution with no bullet. Without any inert filler, it's just powder, and 15% or 20% capacity is only going to make noise just like a carbide cannon - and pop the case into shape smartly.

Dumping a small load of pistol powder into my rifle magazine is messy, thus all the filler & wax plug.

If you're all thumbs, by all means go the more time-consuming route.

I don't know about lubing cases, possibly any lubricant might be ineffective at the pressures needed to expand the brass. All of my improved chambers were cut short meaning the un fire formed brass has a crush fit - bullets not needed.

I should have mentioned that my Ackley chamber is not cut short, so no crush on unformed parent cases. But the light lube along with the right powder charge makes them come out fully formed in all dimensions.

 

[Brians356]

My loading policy demands that one powder container be on bench - there are many ways to blow up a rifle but a big rifle case full of pistol powder would be the most horrific.

Uh, pistol powder is only used for the "bulletless" method. One powder container on the bench is an admirable policy, and in this scenario that one powder is a pistol (or shotgun) powder. And no bullets.

 

[Brians356]

This pistol powder method worked fine but shoulders were rounded, perhaps a few more grains may have solved this.

They certainly would have. If you use a sufficient charge of powder, the shoulders will point up nicely, just like a Cerrosafe plug.

 

[Brians356]

Which is just another reason why some of these "home brew" stunts in reloading are dangerous. Bart's warning is NOT the first time I've heard horror stories like that when people use powders not designed for that use. But some will continue to brew their own stuff (no matter the warnings) as well as the continued horror stories that will happen. Like I've always said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Happy reloading ALL!

Well, Darwinism is always in control, after all. There's no vaccine for stupid.

Plenty of guns have been blown up by chaps trying diligently to follow the step-by-step book recipes. Besides, one could argue that firing a handloaded 280 Rem round in a 280 Ackley Improved chamber is a "home brew" stunt. There are many knowledgeable and experienced handloaders who state flatly they won't have anything to with wildcat cartridges. Are they only being sensible?

Possibly the most eminent authority on all things related to case forming was Ken Howell, author of "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges For Rifles and Handguns". He recommended and described in detail "bulletless" fireforming using pistol powder. Was Mr Howell urging his readers to engage in a reckless "home brew stunt"?

Please. This forum is where folks come for more advanced concepts and techniques.
-

 

[BartsBullets]

So am I, but there's little need for caution with no bullet. Without any inert filler, it's just powder, and 15% or 20% capacity is only going to make noise just like a carbide cannon - and pop the case into shape smartly.

brian356

The problem/danger is never with the fire forming. It what happens afterwards.

In one case a father and son were shooting buddies. The son was in his 30s so not a kid. Both shared the same reloading bench. Son fireforms some cases with pistol powder and doesn't tell dad and doesn't put the pistol powder up. He leaves the pistol powder in the powder throw! The dad comes in and loads up a few rounds for his 6ppc for a match. Dad pulls the trigger and blows his gun and eyeball apart.

So don't think it can't happen. It has before and unfortunately it will again.

Just be careful!

Bart