Fire forming question

[AlNyhus]

For any that may still be interested:

Fireformed 50 of these. On the left is pre-fire forming. Fireformed case on the right has shoulder blown forward .100. As per always, the recipe was simple: load, seat bullet hard into the rifling, lightly oil the cases, press trigger that's attached to a modern, strong action. Repeat 49 more times. Yawn. ;D

Imagine my surprise when nothing bad happened.

Again.....

Good shootin'. -Al

"The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it."
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

 

[15Tango]

Next time I form some Creedmoor brass I'm going to bring along a caliper and what not, I'm going to put some light lube on a few just to see the difference in lubed and none just to see if I get a different end result.

When I went through BCT it was insane how much CLP was sprayed directly into the open actions of M16s and their chambers while on the firing line by drill sergeants. As we were in a line going in one at a time they all received the spray bottle treatment. I always said no thanks, mine's good just because I'm one of those that doesn't care for oil inside those actions to attract dirt and it makes it an even bigger mess to clean. Even though I was the only one that declined, I never saw a rifle explode or bolt or any other component break.

Al, cool pictures. I love the 6BRX, it's such a cool looking cartridge.

Wayne

 

[bigedp51]

Do you oil the cartridge cases of a Tack-Driving Dual-Action Rifles Built Like a Swiss Watch?

Answer - "NO" it voids the warranty and could damage the rifle.
(read below) "Do not oil or grease the cartridges"

300m Competition
6mm BR Leads the Way in Europe

http://www.6mmbr.com/300m.html

 

[15Tango]

I'm only considering trying it during fire forming just for the purpose of experimentation to see if it forms better the first time. I know when forming Grendel brass from 7.62X39 it doesn't fully form during the first firing. My Creedmoor brass I never bothered to check, it looked good though but I jammed the hell out of those bullets. I'm not too worried about a little lube on that particular rifle, the action's a vault and the cartridge is basically an improved design with only .008" body taper.

During normal course of fire or after it's formed it's totally pointless and silly to use lube on a case.

As for a warranty, pretty much all firearms makers void warranty from running reloads through them so that's mostly a moot point. I say mostly because there might be a manufacturers out there that don't expressly void warranties by running reloads.

Ed, we're like 9 or ten pages into this thread, your position on using lube on a case is well-known at this point, no reason to keep repeating it. You're closed-minded about it, we got it. I'm open to listening to all points of an argument and open to my interpretation and analysis. This isn't the TSA forcing you to make a choice between body scanners or a rubber glove. You're free to do what you want, just as everybody else is on this board, unless of course they're in Soviet Russia where they don't fire the rifle, the rifle fires them.

Wayne

 

[AlNyhus]

Wayne: Yeah, the BRX's are cute 'lil devils, aren't they?

Here's a few others I've f-formed (lightly lubed) over the years for various hunting and BR rifles.

Lt to rt:

.17 Javelina, 243 Ackley, 250 Ackley, 30X47HBR, 30 WareWolf, 30X284 BeWare

All were lightly lubed prior to fireforming. Actions were various Remington 700's and Stolles. WD40 and 3-in-One were the most used, though at least one was done with a thin wipe of Imperial Sizing Wax....doesn't really make a difference as long as there's a bit of lubricity.

Headspace is consistent 'out of the chamber' and case thinning is minimized at the back end.

Let us know how your f-forming goes...that 7.62X39 stuff can be a struggle.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[LHSmith]

I am a luber.
I always will be a luber.
I only lube the parent case when fireforming for a wildcat, i.e. 220 Russian to 6 ppc, 6BR to 30BR, 6.5 x 55 to 6.5 x 55 AI. I get better results by lubing. I use a thin coat of light oil. All my actions are Remington 700's, 7's, or Bat. I do not see anyone on this forum advocating any lubing for old military actions......myself I won't own one, or care to fire one. We do this because we are accuracy fanatics...and your SMLE's or whatever ain't gonna cut it for the games I want to play.
I would not be exaggerating to claim that thousands of wildcaters and BR shooters have fireformed tens of thousands of rounds in this manner with no ill-effects to shooter or action. I have heard some on the top of the BR game have tens of thousands of rounds through an action without any significant lug wear..... you see , we grease the hell out of "em".
Whatever brought on your lube-ophobia, consider that the average hunter puts the gun away at the end of the season with the bore oiled for storage(most don't have bore-guides ...so there's also oil in the chamber) I don't know any of my hunting friends who patch that oil out before going afield...and yet, the catatrophic failures due to oil seems to never materialize.
This post is not about a headspace problem ...it's a classic headcase problem.
Grease for peace.

 

[LHSmith]

"Normally when someone says something about lubing cases is where I start frothing at the mouth and let loose with several (expletive deleted) and get kicked out of a forum.

Now I keep my cool and just ask a very simple question."





Bye the bye, on "keep my cool" thingy.............you have failed miserably.









[

 

[bigedp51]

I'm only considering trying it during fire forming just for the purpose of experimentation to see if it forms better the first time. I know when forming Grendel brass from 7.62X39 it doesn't fully form during the first firing. My Creedmoor brass I never bothered to check, it looked good though but I jammed the hell out of those bullets. I'm not too worried about a little lube on that particular rifle, the action's a vault and the cartridge is basically an improved design with only .008" body taper.

During normal course of fire or after it's formed it's totally pointless and silly to use lube on a case.

As for a warranty, pretty much all firearms makers void warranty from running reloads through them so that's mostly a moot point. I say mostly because there might be a manufacturers out there that don't expressly void warranties by running reloads.

Ed, we're like 9 or ten pages into this thread, your position on using lube on a case is well-known at this point, no reason to keep repeating it. You're closed-minded about it, we got it. I'm open to listening to all points of an argument and open to my interpretation and analysis. This isn't the TSA forcing you to make a choice between body scanners or a rubber glove. You're free to do what you want, just as everybody else is on this board, unless of course they're in Soviet Russia where they don't fire the rifle, the rifle fires them.

Wayne

Your right you do not understand me, in the Enfield forums we have people who advocate oiling your cases every time you fire them. This where all my material comes from and it is mind boggling that people would even say anything like this in an open forum.

Think about it, you use a rifle for a season and change the barrel after "X" amount of rounds. You have no long term data and you do not have any pressure testing equipment to measure the strain on the bolt and receiver.

If the Remington 700 is rated as one of the strongest actions then where is the Winchester 94 action on the oiling cartridge scale. Which actions fall into the gray area of increased headspace and which actions will be damaged?

I get angry over oiling/lubing cartridge cases because Joe Smuck reads the oiling advice here and spreads it all over the internet saying the big boys say it OK. The warnings are put there for a reason by the firearms community, and some of you make a joke out ignoring these very warnings.

Do you think I want to damage or to increase the wear on my new rifle on the words of complete strangers who ignore safety warnings about lubing cartridge cases. One damaged rifle in a lifetime is enough.

Your Not Touching My Junk.

 

[AlNyhus]

I would not be exaggerating to claim that thousands of wildcaters and BR shooters have fireformed tens of thousands of rounds in this manner with no ill-effects to shooter or action. I have heard some on the top of the BR game have tens of thousands of rounds through an action without any significant lug wear.....

You are so correct.

My Stolle Kodiak is wearing it's 8th barrel. Round count is well over 15K and the lugs and lug abuttments look like the day it was first barreled. The original headspace measurement taken when the first barrel was fitted still apply today. All cases f-formed from this action have been lubed prior.

Love, peace and hair grease. 8) -Al

 

[15Tango]

Yeah, I hear you on the internet myths. How many times have we heard the 9MM Luger won't kill somebody but the .45 ACP has the ability to 'knock down' villains like a school bus? Remington triggers are unsafe, Ruger rifles are inaccurate, AR15s/M16s all jam, revolvers never jam, only a .30 caliber is sufficient to kill a white tail over 100 Lbs, 7.62X39 is ballistically superior to 5.56 . . . on and on.

Wayne

 

[bigedp51]

OK, I'll "try" and be open minded.

Who has continually fired lubricated cases in the Savage/Stevens bolt action used while in competition and had absolutely NO adverse affects, ie headspace growth, damaged receivers etc.

Which bolt actions would you never conceder firing with oiled/lubricated cases. (Ruger 77 with a cast receiver?)

Have any of you ever damaged a rifle oiling/lubing cartridge cases.

For over six years in the Enfield forums the person below has been telling everyone to lube their cartridge cases every time they fire a cartridge. When I finally posted the warning from the the 1929 Textbook of Small Arms on lubing cartridge cases he removed the "oil" from his "Headspace 101" and now tells everyone to use weed whacker string wrapped around the rim. :

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/3361/t/Headspace-101-for-303-39-s.html

Then after changing his "Headspace 101" sticky to no lube he writes a posting called "Cases and Enfields and lube - Oh my!" with the intent of just starting another argument. (Oiling cases on rifles over 100 years old???)

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=11182

 

[Kenny474]

"hate filled pm's", that's laughable.

PM #1)
Bigedp51,

I replied in the thread you posted about the false shoulder to remove the .005" headspace clearance. What I suggest is that you simply adjust the headspace on the rifle so it essentially has "zero" headspace with new FL sized brass. This will reduce case growth, improve the life of your brass, and my even improve accuracy.

I have listed the tools needed and also some links to videos to help you understand the procedure as well.

If you have any questions about the procedure just PM me and I will answer them if I am sure I know what's right, or refer you to someone who can answer anything you want about a Savage action.

I do have three Savage/Steven's rifles, .222, .243, and .308 and also have a few more barrels in the works as well. I have swapped the barrels around and adjusted the headspace more times than I can count. It's quite simple, and simply adjusting the headspace to "zero" can have many advantages and even improve accuracy a bit.

If you are local to a forum member that has the tools necessary for the job, I would bet they would be willing to give you a hand. Or you may be able to find someone at your local range as well. Even a local smith should be able to handle it as well, and I doubt you would be charged more than $30-$50, as it's very easy for anyone who has ever done it before.

Good luck and happy shooting
Kenny

Here is PM #2) Which was after bigedp51 started insulting myself and other forum members. And I was admittedly a bit miffed, as I was more than polite in my first PM, as you can now see.

Bigedp51,
I have yet to encounter someone who is such a complete know-it-all with such little actual knowledge as you. Honestly, I am continually shocked by how little you understand about precision shooting and loading, so I figure I at least owe it to you to point out where you have gone wrong, as most of your ideas and especially your attitude all need drastic improvement.

As for minimizing headspace in a "new" rifle, it's done by many shooters, usually by those striving for top accuracy. I have done so to all 3 Savage's I own, and it has been an improvement every time.

Do you think it's beneficial to have .001 over minimum headspace? How will this improve the accuracy or functioning? Why are the chambers in bench rifles cut to minimum spec or smaller if more headspace is going to help?

How consistent do you really think your cases will form without any lube in the chamber when you only want to use reduced loads? It's actually beneficial to have either zero clearance or even a slight crush fit on the brass when using reduced loads, as they often don't have enough pressure to stretch (form) the case properly.

Do you plan to get the "tight groups" you're looking for from the .243 with a rubber O-ring as well? I would love you to point out where and in what manual ANYONE has ever recommended using an O-ring for headspace control. But I'm sure since you are the high authority on firearms and reloading safety that you must have some type of literature to justify your actions, or maybe a carved slate from 300-BC that states it's a safe and common practice to substitute proper machining for clearance with an O-ring?. Or do you think that because your doing "everything right" that the bullets will just fall into the same hole, just like the buck-shot pattern group you posted from your awesome O-ring Enfield?

As for a lack of "industry standard" for fire-forming, it's simply because everyone does things a bit different. There is more than one way to skin a cat, much as there is more than one way to properly fire-form a rifle case. It doesn't mean anyone here is wrong, with you being the exception, only that everyone has a way that works for them. I would think if you had even the slightest idea about fire-forming than that would be obvious before you had even asked the question.

On a side note, I think you owe several of the others here an apology. The way you have insulted some of the members here is really uncalled for. What makes you think for one second that you are more knowledgeable on modern rifles or case forming than some of the others you have insulted after they took the time to try and teach you about fire-forming? You have not owned a modern rifle or loaded for one in 12 years. Has it ever occurred to you that many of these guys have been doing exactly what you claim is impossible and totally unsafe (fire-forming lubed cases) for many years, and yet they are still here and have not had any issues?

You are what is referred to as an "Armchair Expert". Basically, someone who has little to no actual experience with the subject matter, but sees them self as an authority. YOU have no actual experience with lubed cases, only second hand knowledge you gained from reading an article or other material. You have no data developed with your rifle with you pulling the trigger. You have not performed any actual testing, nor do you have any actual data on the subject that you developed. The bottom line here, You have no clue what you are talking about and have based your entire argument on data you have absolutely ZERO first-hand experience with.

Nor do you have any experience with adjusting the headspace to minimum spec on a Savage or whether it has any benefit, but you have an opinion there and feel you are more knowledgeable than I as well. Even though I have experience with what I suggested and you do not, you still know more.

Maybe someday you will have a clue about serious accuracy with a rifle, but for now you are simply an "Armchair Expert" and nothing more. Maybe you should just keep your opinions to yourself rather than make an ass out of yourself? I think it would be wise for the foreseeable future, as I doubt anyone will take you seriously for some time after your "explosion of ignorance".

I really hope you can be a bit more open minded in the future, as even your first few posts I ever read (replies to my collet die thread) were a bit out of line. Seriously, how would you feel if someone with as little actual experience with precision shooting and reloading experience as you have tried to bash your idea before they had even tried it or had seen the improvements it made in consistency?

Just so you have an idea of what I do, I have 3 Savage's, one is a full blown bench rig, another in a .308 Steven's hunting rifle with a bit of accurizing work, and the last is a coyote/varmint rifle that is currently being heavily modified. I have a bit of experience with machining and now have a lathe and mill in my basement to do my own smithing, as well as work on rifles for others as well. I am far from clueless, and if you had shut up and listened to me for a bit, I could have helped you dial your Steven's in. But since you feel you know so much more than I and don't want to listen, you will be the one to lose out.

When you are new to something, or have been away from it for over a decade, you might want to listen and take advice from others as you would be surprised what you can learn that way. If you had simply listened to me, I could have explained the benefits of tighter headspace as well as other mods you can do to improve the accuracy of your rifle.

I really hope you take my advice and just shut your mouth for a while. You are simply looking more and more clueless every time you post. Another way to start improving would be to apologize to some of the guys you have insulted.

You really need to remember one thing, some of the guys on this forum are the best in the world in their field. Trust me, they are not just a bunch of idiots behind a keyboard.

Good luck.
Kenny

PS: If you don't plan to act differently, do not reply to this PM or post in my threads. I don't expect you to kiss ass, but I will not tolerate your arrogance and ignorance that you currently exhibit.
I hope you can bring an open mind to the table in the future.

And here is #3)

When did I ever advocate greasing anything? I don't oil my cases. I know it does work, as I have seen it happen. I am simply tired of your ignorance and claiming that it's unsafe.

Go to another forum. You evidently don't fit in here at all. And just so you know, you have been the most conceited horse's ass I have ever seen in my life. All you have done since day 1 is talk sh-t, when you have absolutely nothing to brag about. You are simply pathetic.


None of these are "hate filled", they speak about how I feel after reaching out to someone and trying to help and in turn having the person I try to help call me an idiot.

Maybe if Mr.biged had replied to my suggestion in a way that wasn't rude and had refrained from trying to insult my intelligence than maybe things could have gone differently and I would never have taken the actions that followed his insults. Maybe if biged had not left rude posts that were totally uncalled for in my other threads than I would have a different outlook on him and this situation.

I am truly sorry to everyone (with the exception of biged) for my previous actions and posts in this thread. I am sorry but I can only handle so much before I get fed up, and this jerk pushed me to that point.

Best of luck to you ed, you'll need it when your ignorance catches up to you.

Kenny

 

[jo191145]

OK, I'll "try" and be open minded.

Who has continually fired lubricated cases in the Savage/Stevens bolt action used while in competition and had absolutely NO adverse affects, ie headspace growth, damaged receivers etc.

Maybe, perhaps, just maybe I qualify for treating Savage actions in such a manner more than most on this board.

I have just four Savage actions and I use them in competition. Theres two of your criteria.
Not as easy a criteria to meet as one may think. The idea of using Sav actions for competition is relatively new. You'll see them in long range comps. Short range very seldom.
Was'nt long ago Savage was considered a junk rifle not worthy of getting thrown in a truck.
Folks who've been competing for years already have a bevy of custom actions to build upon. Theres no doubt they're better suited to the task so why go backwards.

I've never intentionally lubed a cartridge simply because I've never had the need. I've never undergone any extreme brass fire forming yet.
I'm just not in the same league as the guys that develop thier own wildcats.
Biggest case transformation I've yet done is turning 6BR to 30 BR. Pretty simple.

Unintentionally someone critical of case lube might possibly suggest all my cases are lightly lubed upon firing.
Every rifle I own gets FL sized after every firing.
I tend to run my guns at some competitive level pressures. FL sizing gives me consistency, long case life and with some loads its pretty much necessary.

I use Imperial wax for sizing. I rub it off after sizing. I've been using the same rag to do so for a few years now. That rag has quite a bit of wax residue on it now.
One could say my brass is lightly lubed upon every firing.

Add to the fact Rons contention that tight headspace transfers force to the bolt regardless of lube. Makes sense to me.
I'm one of those "nuts" like Kenny that adjust my headspace to the brass. A nice crush fit on virgin brass whenever possible.
If need be I'll stone down my shellholder in order to properly headspace my FL die.

My first Sav action has well over 10,000 rds through it. Mostly 204 Ruger.
I've been known to hotrod that cartridge a bit to "see whats over the other side of the hill"
I enjoy the load development side of shooting. I'll burn up most of the life of a tube just to see what works best. For me thats fun.

Personally I trust the Savage action to keep me safe over others. The solid rear bolt considered ugly by many goes a long way to keeping escaping gases out of my face.
The floating bolthead theoretically means both lugs are in contact when I pull the trigger. Especially when crush fit fireforming. JMO's YMMV

PS
I did'nt bother to read the post. I can understand you getting miffed about weedwhacker string ;D ;D
You may think theres "crazies" on this forum but I'll quarentee you no weedwhacker string or O-Rings were hurt, damaged, killed in our rifles.

 

[lpreddick]

i just started fireforming some lapua .223 match brass in a .223ackley using the cow/clays powder/cotton plug technique. first off, this brass is GREAT! i had to try out my new hornady headspace guages also. what i thought was a good fireform was .015-.020 thou off full case formation. i had to go to 9.5 gr clays to get a full fireformed case...perfect, and done in my shop! this much powder makes a loud bang and my neighbors and family agreed. i use a large bale of fire retardent attic insulation with a small hole in one end, insert barrel about 6-12 inches and pull trigger...whummppp. no BANG. after awhile a cavity forms in the middle of the bale. smacking the sides of the bale redistributes the insulation and i start anew. oh yeah, duct tape the ends and sides of the bale,,you'll see why.

if i can see you, i can touch you.BANG!

 

[bigedp51]

Kenny474

Several apparent level headed people have said I got off on the wrong foot here and they should know how to read people. I will also say some rifle forums are like Dodge City, Tombstone of the wild west and I go armed in these forums.

Having said that Kenny474 I will apologise "again" for the second time in this forum to YOU. I came to this forum over gunned with a bad attitude and apparently, possibly, a sense of humor that was misunderstood.

So on the advice of the level headed and "calm" well adjusted people in this forum I again apologise to everyone here in this forum.

I also apologise to the long hair Commie Pinko case greasers. (humor)

Truth be known in less than a years period of time I damaged 2 (two) (deux) Remington rifles lubing cartridge cases. A 788 and a 760 in 1973-74 and have spent a lifetime researching and wondering what if anything I did wrong. You can say I have a very anti-greasing attitude especially when it comes to the Enfield rifles I collect.

In closing Kenny474 my oldest son is a forensic psychologist or criminal profiler for the FBI. I sent your PMs and this post link to him to annalize. You will be glad to know my son didn't say anything about you Kenny474 in relation to Sigmund Freud, but he did say this.

"Dad get off the computer and find something to do", you see Kenny474 my son studied Forensic Psychology to better understand his fathers criminal mind. :

 

[bozo699]

bigedp51,
That sounds good to me. to your op I hope you find a solution that will work for you with out greasing which you have made clear you don't like or agree with, which is fine and by all means its your right to disagree with that method. With all that said this forum isn't like ANY OF THE OTHER ONES. These guys really want to help you ,me, and anybody else that ask for it.I have screwed up several times and said something stupid, they have jumped on me about it (diservedly so) I have apologized for it, forgiven, end of story lets move on
Good luck on this Ed.
Wayne.

 

[bozo699]

P.S to my above post, things may have gone to far for you and Kenny to ever be friends I don't know and can't answer that, What I do know is he is a very stand up guy and has become a friend of mine.He is very intelligent and has made many good contributions to this site. He has made incorrect statements on here in the past, the same as the rest of us, and when he notices he has made a error he would be one of the first to admit he was wrong, I have witnessed it. I am not trying to get into you or Kenny's business just making a statement about my friend.
Wayne.

 

[bigedp51]

bozo699

Thank you for being understanding, and what Kenny474 needs to understand is this .243 and some of my other rifles will belong to my two sons someday. I also want Kenny474 to understand I'm 60 years old and my sons will get my guns "sooner" than later and a rifle that won't chamber commercial cartridge isn't practical.

Note to Kenny474

This is my Barrel nut. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My barrel nut is my best friend, and you can't play with it. ;D

 

[15Tango]

Good man, Ed.

Can of worms while on the subject of barrel nuts. Why can't we retro fit a barrel nut onto any other commercial action allowing the average guy with a Remington, Ruger, Winchester or whatever to be able to do the things we can with a Savage/Stevens? All it'd take from what I can tell is a barrel with threads going farther up for the barrel to go on and a nut that's the same thread as the whatever threads your action/barrel would have. Why can't we do that or is there somebody out there doing it and I just don't know?

Wayne

 

[Kenny474]

Appology accepted Biged, now let's just move on. I will say I am sorry we got off on the wrong foot and my original intentions were to help not hinder. I do understand the need for the rifle to use factory ammo and that is something we could have worked around as well. It's in the past, so let us allow it to stay that way.

Now as for the barrel nut system, it can be and already has been adapted to other action systems. I don't remember who, but there is a barrel company that offers "nutted" barrels for the 700 action. If you can machine a nut with the same threads as the action, than you can make a barrel nut system.

I plan to try to machine a barrel with a nut system for a Rem 700 at some point in the future, as I don't think it will be that hard. I am still working to perfect the "switch barrel nut" for my Savage, which is basically a system that locks the nut into place on the barrel and allows the barrel to be removed and replaced without ever needing to adjust the nut. Once I have the Savage nut perfected (it's a bit ugly right now) I plan to move on to other things that I want to try to make, like barrel nuts for other actions, billet reloading press, action block for Savage actions and other such projects.


And just an FYI, I really don't want to play with your nuts anyway.