Fire forming question

[bozo699]

Joe,
Your right about the old sloppy military cartridges but this thread didn't start out about Military cartridges did it? Ed just made it that way. The O3A3 is a far far far far superior rifle to the cheaply built British! period the end! I will continue to lube my cases when fireforming along with many many many other Bench resters and wildcatters
Wayne.

 

[jo191145]

Your correct Wayne. This thread started very gun/action specific.
I won't bother going through the entire littany again. Even with all the deleted posts enough remains to get the gist.
Everyone should know by now where I stand. A non luber ready to fight to the death for lubers rights ;D ;D Just as long as its done responsibly with prior forethought and education.
Prior forethought and education is all thats required to remain safe. The correct gun can obviously be thrown into the mix of prior forethought and education.
Someday I may venture into realms where I may feel the need to lube. I'll go there with common sense and no trepidation. No box stock Remmy either.

I won't knock the 303 Brit. Never had one or even fired one. Got a single lug Krag and O3 and I'll quarentee they can't live up to a modern Savage much less a custom. Never would buy a milsurp but free is stupid to pass up.
O3 is just a Mauser knock off and Mauser can't handle todays real world. Someone will correct me on that I'm sure
Ed says much of the headspace issues in the brit is due to brass manufacturer and not the rifle itself. Being ignorant I have no reason to disbelieve him. On old foreign milsurps i'll gladlly remain ignorant.

My vote? Anyone who uses Vaseline and O Rings in the same sentence on this forum should be banned. That conversation just can't be right. ;D


Oh dang I just got myself banned

 

[bozo699]

Your correct Wayne. This thread started very gun/action specific.
I won't bother going through the entire littany again. Even with all the deleted posts enough remains to get the gist.
Everyone should know by now where I stand. A non luber ready to fight to the death for lubers rights ;D ;D Just as long as its done responsibly with prior forethought and education.
Prior forethought and education is all thats required to remain safe. The correct gun can obviously be thrown into the mix of prior forethought and education.
Someday I may venture into realms where I may feel the need to lube. I'll go there with common sense and no trepidation. No box stock Remmy either.

I won't knock the 303 Brit. Never had one or even fired one. Got a single lug Krag and O3 and I'll quarentee they can't live up to a modern Savage much less a custom. Never would buy a milsurp but free is stupid to pass up.
O3 is just a Mauser knock off and Mauser can't handle todays real world. Someone will correct me on that I'm sure
Ed says much of the headspace issues in the brit is due to brass manufacturer and not the rifle itself. Being ignorant I have no reason to disbelieve him. On old foreign milsurps i'll gladlly remain ignorant.

My vote? Anyone who uses Vaseline and O Rings in the same sentence on this forum should be banned. That conversation just can't be right. ;D


Oh dang I just got myself banned

Joe,
You and I have had some pretty good conversations in the past so on a serious note you are 100% spot on in the fact that we need to use common sense and some forethought into a project before jumping in with both feet. Obviously we shouldn't lube old 20Th century rifles no matter military or not. Most modern rifles will handle light lubing if the need arises, custom actions with BR chambers will for sure will, remember when lubing cases it is no different than when lubing for re sizing consistency is everything!! a small amount go's a long ways. Common sense is paramount in all aspects of the shooting world!! Lube sensibly
Wayne.

 

[PREMOD70]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said lube sensibly. When fireforming I lightly lube the shoulder area only and always stay away from the bottom half of the case as well as never using high pressure loads. Clean the chamber with a chamber mop and brake cleaner between rounds, dry and fire again has worked many a year for me and so far no failures from brass or mechanical devices.

 

[BoydAllen]

What is it that you gain from all of that?

 

[bigedp51]

If my warnings are behind the times then the U.S. military is behind the times also. The funny part is "NONE" of you have the pressure measuring equipment to validate your claims. The NATO testing requirements use oiled proof test cartridges to simulate combat conditions, show me one commercial firearms manufacture that proof tests its firearms with oiled proof test cartridges.

All your saying is you send text messages while driving your car and haven't hit any trucks head on "YET".

Then there is what the H. P. White Testing Laboratories has to say about it.

The simple truth of the matter is commercial firearms were not designed to fire lubricated ammunition which doubles the bolt thrust on your rifle. Or are we forgetting P.O. Ackleys experiments with cartridge cases.

Your advice for lubing cartridge cases is getting out of hand, and you can find it in any rifle forum.

 

[bozo699]

If my warnings are behind the times then the U.S. military is behind the times also. The funny part is "NONE" of you have the pressure measuring equipment to validate your claims. The NATO testing requirements use oiled proof test cartridges to simulate combat conditions, show me one commercial firearms manufacture that proof tests its firearms with oiled proof test cartridges.

All your saying is you send text messages while driving your car and haven't hit any trucks head on "YET".

I'll admit that's a good one Ed
Wayne.

 

[effendude]

Wow,
I have to give a tip of the hat to Biged. You really hoodwinked everyone with the April Fools prank. 12 pages of posts trying to resolve a problem with a $300 rifle whose owner wants to shoot BOTH factory ammo with the same precision as his finely tuned precision hand-loads. The plan, as I understand it, is to make the precision fire formed cases all have exactly the same headspace as the mass produced factory ammo the rifle owner also plans to use. Why would anyone think the mass produced factory ammo will have anymore of a consistent (or the same) headspace than the 300 pieces of mass produced factory brass?
Scott

 

[bigedp51]

effendude

1. Your more than a few months behind the rest of the world. (April Fools prank????)
2. I don't shoot factory ammo.
3. You don't know what your talking about.
4. The case greases in this forum have identified themselves. :
5. And 6289 people have viewed these pages about "NOT" lubing your cartridge cases and why it should not be done.
6. You can now tip your hat.

 

[bigedp51]

If my warnings are behind the times then the U.S. military is behind the times also. The funny part is "NONE" of you have the pressure measuring equipment to validate your claims. The NATO testing requirements use oiled proof test cartridges to simulate combat conditions, show me one commercial firearms manufacture that proof tests its firearms with oiled proof test cartridges.

All your saying is you send text messages while driving your car and haven't hit any trucks head on "YET".

I'll admit that's a good one Ed
Wayne.

This is even better

 

[shortgrass]

Not at all, bigedp51 ! We're all just watchin'to see kinda' nonsense you come up with next!

 

[bigedp51]

shortgrass

We're all just watchin'to see kinda' nonsense you come up with next!

When some people in milsurp forums tell everyone to lube their ammo because they heard it in forums like this one it ain't nonsense it is pure stupidity.

When people make statements about lubing cartridge cases and don't have any pressure measuring equipment to validate their claims it's utter nonsense.

When you people get it through your thick heads that this advice is getting out of hand you might understand where I'm coming from.

Do you people actually think your special and the laws of physics don't apply to you and our firearms. Did you ever stop to think about the people with 100 year old milsurp rifles or even 50 year old commercial factory rifles shooting lubed cases because you people think its OK to do so.

What I'm saying isn't nonsense but what some of you are saying doesn't belong in open forums for any idiot to read and spread around the net.

 

[bozo699]

Not at all, bigedp51 ! We're all just watchin'to see kinda' nonsense you come up with next!

LMAO right there.

 

[jo191145]

What is it that you gain from all of that?

Excellent question Boyd ;D
i've been wondering if an answer would ever be forthcoming ;D

No idea how to score this one in the lube vs no lube war.
Prior forethought and education vs never do it?
Tough call.
I could argue the merits of the win/lose situation on both sides.

You gonna explain the fallicies to him?
Seems he's safe enough to let it ride but............

 

[Tozguy]

What I'm saying isn't nonsense but what some of you are saying doesn't belong in open forums for any idiot to read and spread around the net.

I'm siding with Ed on this one. Putting personalities aside, the message of caution that lubing cases is poison needs to be heard more than the message that lubing can be OK for fireforming. In my books lubing cases is a lazy way out of fireforming and is far from being compatible with ANY common firearm or cartridge design.

 

[effendude]

Biged,
You have created a quest in your mind for a problem that doesn't exist in a modern rifle. Many shooters far more experienced and more well known than I have tried to have a reasonable discussion regarding the question you posted. Your warning about lubed cases was made on the first page. 12 pages later, you are calling members names and being disrespectful to the advice offered. My post was an light hearted attempt to try to get you to see the folly of your imaginary issue. (you stated earlier you wanted the ability to shoot factory ammo, look for it...)
Best of Luck to you and God Bless.
Scott

 

[PREMOD70]

What is it that you gain from all of that?

I hope to get fully formed brass comparable to the chamber and neck without inducing stress or stretch to the lower portion of the case, so far it works for me.

 

[BoydAllen]

Did you observe problems with a dry case in a dry chamber? Every single one of my considerably reformed 6PPC cases has been fire formed dry. Some of them have been fired many times, typically at high pressures. The only time that I have ever had issues with a case were if it has had its shoulder bumped back excessively, several times, by mistake. Luckily, I discovered the error in time to avert any problem, and discarded the cases. Other than that, there have been no problems. Sometimes, I think that reloaders pay insufficient attention to how they set up FL dies, and problems occur that would have not otherwise happened. I use an attachment on my dial calipers to verify shoulder bump, every time that I FL size a different batch of brass. Recently, I forgot that a die was set for a batch of old, work hardened, brass, the first case that I sized, from a batch that was newer and softer, had its shoulder bumped .004, with a die setting that had produced .001 or less with the harder brass. For this reason, for my PPC, I unscrew the die when packing my loading kit, to force myself to reset it for each session. One thing that I have learned is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If your method works for you, then that is all that is required. It is just that it seems to address a problem that I have not had.

 

[bozo699]

Very sensible post Boyd.
Wayne.

 

[PREMOD70]

Did you observe problems with a dry case in a dry chamber? Every single one of my considerably reformed 6PPC cases has been fire formed dry. Some of them have been fired many times, typically at high pressures. The only time that I have ever had issues with a case were if it has had its shoulder bumped back excessively, several times, by mistake. Luckily, I discovered the error in time to avert any problem, and discarded the cases. Other than that, there have been no problems. Sometimes, I think that reloaders pay insufficient attention to how they set up FL dies, and problems occur that would have not otherwise happened. I use an attachment on my dial calipers to verify shoulder bump, every time that I FL size a different batch of brass. Recently, I forgot that a die was set for a batch of old, work hardened, brass, the first case that I sized, from a batch that was newer and softer, had its shoulder bumped .004, with a die setting that had produced .001 or less with the harder brass. For this reason, for my PPC, I unscrew the die when packing my loading kit, to force myself to reset it for each session. One thing that I have learned is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If your method works for you, then that is all that is required. It is just that it seems to address a problem that I have not had.

I have no problem with dry forming but just noted that I lube only the front of the case very lightly so that I can get the desired results with lower pressure loads rather than firing with full house loads. The problem that the OP has can be easily be solved by dry firing in my opinion. As for the use of F/L sizers I think a book could be written on the subject but will just say that I use the RCBS precision micrometer to measure my cases and have discovered enough variation in cases after being F/L sized that I sort into lots.