GUY'S I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WILL SOLVE THE WHOLE THING!!!!
CLIFFY IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST IN DISGUISE!!!!!!
CLIFFY IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST IN DISGUISE!!!!!!
bigedp51
Kenny474 said:
Kenny474
Lets see what the prestigious firearms testing facility of H.P White Labratory has to say on the subject.
Some comments on this photo of a failure. Hard to see the detail of the failure surface, but it appears to have failed suddenly in a brittle manner from shear stress. This should not happen. I would strongly suspect the heat treatment and workmanship of the part. It has been hardened excessively to make it brittle, and lacking toughness. Only one lug has failed, strongly suggesting both lugs were not sharing the load. The failed lug failed to yield under stress (i.e. it is brittle) to allow deformation and then sharing of the load between the two lugs. This can be caused by a lack of original workmanship in lapping the lugs to make sure they both contact at the same time. Or, as a result of negligence of the owner, by substituting a bolt from another gun without having it fitted to the action.
In short I would suggest this failure was caused by a combination of bad material and either original workmanship or negligence in substituting parts. It has nothing to do with lubrication of the brass in the chamber.
In short I would suggest this failure was caused by a combination of bad material and either original workmanship or negligence in substituting parts. It has nothing to do with lubrication of the brass in the chamber.
There's a place somewhere between flirting with Darwin and playing it safe that some folks like to visit. Just because one doesn't have interest in going there doesn't mean that another doesn't want to. Who are we to chide the explorers? After all, the Earth is flat. Besides, it's every free man's inalienable right to make poor decisions that may result in their untimely demise.
Anyway, I think we're going to need GPS to measure these two incredibly long pee streams.
Wayne
Anyway, I think we're going to need GPS to measure these two incredibly long pee streams.
Wayne
bigedp51
RonAKA said:
Oiling, lubing, greasing cartridge cases increases bolt thrust to near twice the level as a "DRY" cartridge case.
1.4.1 The general perception is that those failures are the result of a single exposure to a CATASTROPHIC PRESSURE level. This may be an over simplification in that the strength of the assembly may have been degraded by previous repeated exposures to excessive, but lesser, levels of pressure whose cumulative effect is to reduce the ultimate strength of the assembly.
3.2 Inasmuch as fatigue failures are due to the cumulative effect of the number of exposures AND the specific level of overpressure of each exposure,
RonAKA, wrong guess!
"In short I would suggest this failure was caused by a combination of bad material and either original workmanship or negligence in substituting parts. It has nothing to do with lubrication of the brass in the chamber."
M16-A4 bolt damaged from bolt thrust, are you going to tell me the bolt was defective also?
Biged,
I really think you need some help. You claim to be 60+ years of age, but you show the maturity of a young teen at best. Your entire thread has been nothing but you crying because everyone won't agree with you.
WAAAAHHHHHH, I'M RIGHT GUYS I SWEAR! I HAVE BOOKS TO PROVE IT! IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE ME I'LL JUST KEEP CRYING AND TALKING ABOUT HOW MY BOOKS SAY I'M RIGHT!
You see biged, I have these two things I carry around all day called balls. That's why I go out and prove my point, while you cry like a bitch at your computer screen, frantically searching the net for proof you're right. I don't need to recite BS that other people say, I have a mind of my own and the balls to try new things and see if they work.
Having the balls to actually be the one to do the testing to prove the stuff that is written into books and articles is what separates the men from the bitches.
I really think you need some help. You claim to be 60+ years of age, but you show the maturity of a young teen at best. Your entire thread has been nothing but you crying because everyone won't agree with you.
WAAAAHHHHHH, I'M RIGHT GUYS I SWEAR! I HAVE BOOKS TO PROVE IT! IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE ME I'LL JUST KEEP CRYING AND TALKING ABOUT HOW MY BOOKS SAY I'M RIGHT!
You see biged, I have these two things I carry around all day called balls. That's why I go out and prove my point, while you cry like a bitch at your computer screen, frantically searching the net for proof you're right. I don't need to recite BS that other people say, I have a mind of my own and the balls to try new things and see if they work.
Having the balls to actually be the one to do the testing to prove the stuff that is written into books and articles is what separates the men from the bitches.
And you just prove my point even more! You are a retard!
Hi, my name is biged and I can copy and paste and claim all the info as my own thoughts. I can even do pictures, wanna see?
(sorry, they don't have a "drooling retard" emoticon)
Just get a life man. I won't be "checking in on you" any more, as I am afraid I may actually be losing intelligence from reading your stupidity.
Good luck ed.
Hi, my name is biged and I can copy and paste and claim all the info as my own thoughts. I can even do pictures, wanna see?
(sorry, they don't have a "drooling retard" emoticon)Just get a life man. I won't be "checking in on you" any more, as I am afraid I may actually be losing intelligence from reading your stupidity.
Good luck ed.
bigedp51 said:
Do you know what a fatigue failure surface looks like? Have a look at this picture.
Fatigue starts as a crack, and propagates slowly with each additional stress cycle. This type of failure will show striations or beach marks as you can see in the old fatigue fracture section of the item above. When the stress is equal to the remaining material the component then fails suddenly essentially tearing the component apart.
While your bolt picture is not very clear, I do not obviously see that pattern. There is a slight color difference, but I believe that may be the effect of surface hardening, and toward the middle you are seeing some of the unhardened material. But if you can provide a close up it would be much easier to tell for sure. But as is I see no striations, or beach marks.
Also, if one lug was failing in fatigue then the load should have been shifted to the other lug and the fatigue cracking stopped. That does not appear to have happened.
I would be happy to look at a better picture if you have it. But, as is, this fracture look brittle, sudden, and covers the whole surface of the failure. Poor heat treatment, and workmanship.
bigedp51
RonAKA
The darker area at the break/fracture is from oil, the lighter area which fractured last doesn't have any "oil" on it.
The bolt lug sheared off from lubing cartridge cases.
3.2 Inasmuch as fatigue failures are due to the cumulative effect of the number of exposures AND the specific level of overpressure of each exposure.
I asked about fire forming cases here in this forum and the very first reply in this posting told me to lube my cartridge cases with 3 in 1 oil.
The darker area at the break/fracture is from oil, the lighter area which fractured last doesn't have any "oil" on it.
The bolt lug sheared off from lubing cartridge cases.
3.2 Inasmuch as fatigue failures are due to the cumulative effect of the number of exposures AND the specific level of overpressure of each exposure.
I asked about fire forming cases here in this forum and the very first reply in this posting told me to lube my cartridge cases with 3 in 1 oil.
bigedp51
RonAKA said:
bigedp51
One of the benefits of the Ackley improved cartridge was less body taper, more case surface area and less bolt thrust.
If the .303 Epps has less body taper and more surface area why would anyone want to lube a standard .303 case and increase bolt thrust.
You will not find a single article at Accurate Shooter.com on lubing cases to fireform them. What you do find is warnings to remove all lubrication from the chamber and cartridge before firing.
Lubing cartridge cases is contrary to all official printed material, and yet the faceless strangers in this and every other forum tell everyone to lube your cases.
(Trust me the check is in the mail)
Action type, cartridge case body taper, surface area and chamber pressure all effect bolt thrust. And yet the advocates of cartridge case lubrication are not published, there are no recommended rifle actions or lubed loading data.........
And you want me to take your word its OK to lube my .243 cases and that my Stevens 200 is built like a tank and lubing cases won't damage my newest rifle.
Sorry, one damaged rifle in a lifetime is enough.
If the .303 Epps has less body taper and more surface area why would anyone want to lube a standard .303 case and increase bolt thrust.
You will not find a single article at Accurate Shooter.com on lubing cases to fireform them. What you do find is warnings to remove all lubrication from the chamber and cartridge before firing.
Lubing cartridge cases is contrary to all official printed material, and yet the faceless strangers in this and every other forum tell everyone to lube your cases.
(Trust me the check is in the mail)
Action type, cartridge case body taper, surface area and chamber pressure all effect bolt thrust. And yet the advocates of cartridge case lubrication are not published, there are no recommended rifle actions or lubed loading data.........
And you want me to take your word its OK to lube my .243 cases and that my Stevens 200 is built like a tank and lubing cases won't damage my newest rifle.
Sorry, one damaged rifle in a lifetime is enough.
) You all have been far more patient than I. (I'm with you Kenny)
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
bigedp51,
Please do not respond to my comment. Ed you need to get a life. You ask a question,....several top ranking shooters and reloaders answered your question to the best of there ability. You could only see what you wanted to and nothing else you couldn't even focus on your original post. Ed I took the time to check out numorous of your posts and not to my suprise did I find that for whatever reason you seem to like to argue, make fun of, and or degrade someone on every post.Please do us all a favor and remove this thread and yourself from this site.I am sure that won't happen so rather than fight with you I for one simply won't reply to any of your threads or comments you make on other members posts. This whole thing sounds like it should be on snipershide or somthing. Anyway
God Bless you and have a nice life.
Wayne.
Please do not respond to my comment. Ed you need to get a life. You ask a question,....several top ranking shooters and reloaders answered your question to the best of there ability. You could only see what you wanted to and nothing else you couldn't even focus on your original post. Ed I took the time to check out numorous of your posts and not to my suprise did I find that for whatever reason you seem to like to argue, make fun of, and or degrade someone on every post.Please do us all a favor and remove this thread and yourself from this site.I am sure that won't happen so rather than fight with you I for one simply won't reply to any of your threads or comments you make on other members posts. This whole thing sounds like it should be on snipershide or somthing. Anyway
God Bless you and have a nice life.
Wayne.
bigedp51
I asked a simple fire forming question involving .003 to .005 head gap clearance on a commercial Stevens 200 243 rifle due to varying new case length causing the problem.
Minimum headspace for the .243 is 1.630 and my new Stevens 200 .243 is one thousandths over minimum or 1.631. When a "Top Ranking" forum member wants to play with my barrel nut this forum member becomes the "loose nut" in a fire forming question.
Tell me to seat my bullets long hard into the rifling.
Tell me to create a false shoulder.
Don't tell me to oil my cases or to adjust my headspace to below minimum specifications on a $300.00 hunting rifle that has a standard commercial chamber and barrel.
NOT one printed article at Accurate Shooter.com tells you to oil or lube cartridge cases to fire form them. And not one article printed on fire forming at Accurate Shooter.com tells you to adjust your headspace and not bother fire forming your cases.
Minimum headspace for the .243 is 1.630 and my new Stevens 200 .243 is one thousandths over minimum or 1.631. When a "Top Ranking" forum member wants to play with my barrel nut this forum member becomes the "loose nut" in a fire forming question.
Tell me to seat my bullets long hard into the rifling.
Tell me to create a false shoulder.
Don't tell me to oil my cases or to adjust my headspace to below minimum specifications on a $300.00 hunting rifle that has a standard commercial chamber and barrel.
NOT one printed article at Accurate Shooter.com tells you to oil or lube cartridge cases to fire form them. And not one article printed on fire forming at Accurate Shooter.com tells you to adjust your headspace and not bother fire forming your cases.
I couldn't agree with Wayne (Bozo699) more. This thread's level of degradation goes lower and lower with every page and it's far from what I'm used to on this forum. From what I've seen and experienced on this forum almost everybody knows each other by their first names and have a rapport.
Kenny's been on here longer than I have and been more than helpful to many shooters and contributed in many positive ways from what I can remember of the gentleman. That being said, he may have let the heat of the moment get to him at times in this thread, not everybody can shrug off personal attacks and insults - I know I certainly can't - so I don't blame him. I can defend Kenny's character because of his length of time on the board, quality of contribution and candor while trying to help his fellow shooter.
To place Biged in juxtaposition with Kenny I see somebody who has just over 100 posts, half of which have been on this useless thread attacking any and everybody, and I haven't seen the other half but I'll take Wayne's (Bozo699) word for it that his research into his other posts is correct and that he's vindictive and argumentative and hasn't really offered anything positive to the forum. That sort of bickering, fighting and pissing contests are better suited to entry-level gun forums like thehighroad where that sort of activity is rampant and the norm.
Ed, if you're going to continue to hang out on here, take the hint and clean it up and do the right thing, apologize and delete all your slander - nobody's going to forget the wrong but we may be able to forgive it if you do the right thing from here on out.
Wayne
P.S. If you're just going to post another menagerie of pictures trying to argue your original point or to insult somebody, don't bother - this is beyond who's right and wrong regarding the original question about headspace.
Kenny's been on here longer than I have and been more than helpful to many shooters and contributed in many positive ways from what I can remember of the gentleman. That being said, he may have let the heat of the moment get to him at times in this thread, not everybody can shrug off personal attacks and insults - I know I certainly can't - so I don't blame him. I can defend Kenny's character because of his length of time on the board, quality of contribution and candor while trying to help his fellow shooter.
To place Biged in juxtaposition with Kenny I see somebody who has just over 100 posts, half of which have been on this useless thread attacking any and everybody, and I haven't seen the other half but I'll take Wayne's (Bozo699) word for it that his research into his other posts is correct and that he's vindictive and argumentative and hasn't really offered anything positive to the forum. That sort of bickering, fighting and pissing contests are better suited to entry-level gun forums like thehighroad where that sort of activity is rampant and the norm.
Ed, if you're going to continue to hang out on here, take the hint and clean it up and do the right thing, apologize and delete all your slander - nobody's going to forget the wrong but we may be able to forgive it if you do the right thing from here on out.
Wayne
P.S. If you're just going to post another menagerie of pictures trying to argue your original point or to insult somebody, don't bother - this is beyond who's right and wrong regarding the original question about headspace.
It might be possible. When I had my .243 I ran R17 under 70 grain Noslers and I went over 3800 quite easily, I only stopped because I didn't want to risk tearing the barrel up. Sorry, I don't have the data anymore, I sold the rifle and my data to a friend.
I can't imagine what a .243 at that speed would do to a coyote.
Wayne
Awesome, you're content being that guy going slow in the left lane.
What I said never advocated or was against the lubing of cases, personally I'd never do it. The peer pressure is just a group of people that don't want you here because you have nothing to offer.
You have a few people that agree with the no-lube on the cases, great, I'm one of them. However, Kenny brought your little spat to PMs which would have been the more adult thing to do and you decided to keep it out in the public. Good job, you sure are proving to be one hell of a stand-up guy.
I never said apologize for having a stance, I said you need to apologize for acting inappropriately, go back to thehighroad.org or glocktalk with your attitude and confrontational, immature approach to conducting conversation.
Since you enjoy being made a fool of and feel the need to try and defend your manhood by displaying your internet gun forum prowess I'll post this in the forum instead of a PM.
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