Fire forming question

[bigedp51]

Is there a point in asking a question if you already have the "answer"? Most forums call that trolling, and take a dim view.

Kenny is just telling you how to set your headspace properly with a standard headspace gauge. He is not telling you to set it short for a short case. Set properly you will not have any problem if you decide to upgrade from the Winchester stuff to a higher quality Lapua brass.

If you actually have a long chamber and fire standard brass in it, this is no big deal. You will not suffer from stretching the brass unless you FL size it back on each loading. Then you will probably eventually suffer case failure down near the head.

RonAKA

I have already explained my rifles head space is approximately .001 over "minimum" head space which is close enough to perfection for anyone. The problem is measuring the new cases with a RCBS Precision Mic the cartridge cases vary in length from .003 head gap clearance to .005 head gap clearance.

I do not need to adjust my rifles head space, I want to know the best way to fire form these cases to eliminate "ANY" case stretching while still minimising barrel wear. No grease or oil on the cases, no Cream of Wheat, just a minimalist approach to blowing out the shoulders of the cases.

Does anyone have a favorite reduced load for fire forming a .243 cases.

Does anyone have a starting load for fire forming .243 cases.

Both the low pressure methods above require a false shoulder or seating the bullets long because of the lower pressures. But my question here is simple, will these cases fill out enough at these lower pressures or will it be a waste of time. Should I just drop back a few grains from max and jamb the bullets into the rifling and let fly?

 

[RonAKA]

I'm sorry, but I think you are caught in a paradigm of analysis paralysis. There really is no such thing as fireforming a factory case in a factory chamber. Just fire the thing and move on... I'm currently getting groups in the .1's with new Lapua brass fired for the first time in a factory chamber.

 

[bigedp51]

I'm sorry, but I think you are caught in a paradigm of analysis paralysis. There really is no such thing as fireforming a factory case in a factory chamber. Just fire the thing and move on... I'm currently getting groups in the .1's with new Lapua brass fired for the first time in a factory chamber.

Thank you RonAKA, it may be "Much Ado About Nothing" my problem is I have been only shooting the Enfield rifle for far too long and have case stretch phobia. (plus too many gauges now to measure this phobia)

I read everything at this website about fireforming and assumed it was the correct and current thing to do for case life and accuracy. I have 300 cases ready to load with 100 of them having a false shoulder. I will keep you posted on any case stretching on initial firing.

 

[BoydAllen]

Let me be direct.(hopefully with a friendly tone) I think that you are wasting your time, and that your military .303 experience has you doing something that will net you nothing for your effort. I have never used any method to try to eliminate the "problem" that you are trying to fix, and the only cases that I have seen that showed deterioration from stretching had their shoulders bumped back excessively repeatedly. Once one becomes aware of the potential for this to happen, it is easy to avoid. Work up you loads. Fix the factory bedding. Make sure that your scope is properly mounted, and parallax free. Learn how your new rifle likes to be rested and held. These thing have the potential for improving your rifle's performance. Your cases will be fine. If you want better brass, buy Lapua.

I shoot a 6PPC, with cases that are fire formed from a .220 Russian. There is undoubtedly some initial stretch involve in the fire forming. I have fired some of the cases untold numbers of times, at very high pressures. As long as I watch the bump closely there is no problem that can be attributed to whatever stretch took place during fire forming.

 

[AlNyhus]

Go ahead and keep oiling your cases and keep thinking you know more than the firearms engineers. I keep my chamber dry and oil free and know the reason "why".

Again, I'm not advocating the routine lubricating of cases. But lightly lubricating cases for the initial firing is a well accepted practice. That you can't get past that is obvious, so rather than posting additional info to support this practice, I'll leave things at that. I learned long ago that topics like this are tantamount to pushing a rope..... lots of effort with minimal result, as the rope just isn't up to the task.

I wish you well in your reloading endeavors. Remember to have fun, enjoy your shooting and understand that there are few 'absolutes' in life or reloading.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[jo191145]

Anyone ever polish thier brass with Walnut media, tap em out and load em?
I know I have. Numerous times.
Thats a lightly lubricated case right there

In a modern rifle the world is round. No sailing over the edge.
In an old milsurp there may be crevasses and whirlpools.
Two different worlds, two different realitys.

Lubing the cases for fireforming wildcats dates back a ways and has been done quite succesfully by the Benchrest crowd. Folks who know thier stuff and its limitations.
Its not so well accepted on this forum tho. Anyone remember "CatShooter"
I'll leave it alone.

biged

So you don't want to adjust your headspace to your brass. Quite understandable, most don't.
That does'nt mean its the wrong thing to do.
A Savage allows "some" folks to do just that.
Serious shooters don't make a habit of swapping brass continually or buying preloads from Wally World.
Only rule is to decrease headspace, never increase. Care must be given to ensure theres ample room between the bolt face and barrel stub also.

Decreasing the headspace on a Savage is no different than swapping boltheads on your ol 303's.
Just accomplished on the other end.

In the end just shoot the darn thing. Open up your caliper to .005 and look through the crack.
That should put things in perspective.

 

[bigedp51]

jo191145

This was written over 100 years ago by the British who used a different method of measuring chamber pressure at the very rear of the cartridge case.

19 tons or tsi is 45,000 cup or 49,000 psi, in simple english this means with an oiled cartridge case you are wearing your rifle out twice as fast with oil on the cartridge. The effects of bolt thrust are well documented, the problem is people would rather listen to myths and rumors than read the truth.

This is current material, do you see any changes in the last 100 years?

And your going to lecture me on "headspace" when I collect and shoot the Lee Enfield rifle that can have as much as .020 head gap clearance and still be within military headspace limits. :

 

[djtjr]

Forming a false shoulder on a case neck implies that the chamber will be a tight neck or less than standard neck. Therefore I don't beleive that a false shoulder would work. You do need to take up the slack in that headspace by at least 2-3 thou, and just firing them as is will not be satisfactory for uniform headspace on your fired brass. The next best thing may be to find your "jam" into the lands and use this bullet seating or further into the lands for your fireforming. This will insure that your chambered round remains seated against the bolt face. You may well have to reduce powder load somewhat to account for the jam, but not too much or you may not get a satisfactory fireform.

Mike

mike its a lot of work but you would neck up then size back down a bit short to create the false shoulder it does not require a tight neck chamber but is likely overkill as i would just set a tight jam and fireform that way.
best,
Don

 

[Kenny474]

As for setting your rifle up for one batch of brass making no sense, if you reload the 300 cases you have even 5 times a piece, your barrel will be toast anyway.

You need to remember one thing, YOU are the one asking for advice here. If you are not open to the suggestions of others, than don't ask for advice. There is no need to be rude or insulting, as nobody has done so to you. Asking a question to start an argument is called trolling, go elsewhere to start that crap please.


As you have stated already, YOU have not fired a modern rifle in 12 years, so stop comparing a Savage to an Enfield. They are not the same or even close. You wanted a simple solution, I as well as several others have given them to you. YOU again refuse to listen or consider that maybe, just maybe, we might have a little more experience with this than you.

As for your 100 year old info, it's out-dated. You are again comparing 100 year old metalurgy to a modern rifle that is built much stronger than most any built 100 years ago.

And on one last note, YOU again are the one duct-taping torque wrenches to your press. You again are the one who is so close minded to refuse to even consider that someone may have found an idea that is of benefit. You registered in October, and all your posts I have seen are of you refusing to listen to the ideas and opinions of others, making negative or insulting posts, or trying to discredit what someone else has posted. I have yet to see any real beneficial contribution to the forum from you. It really seems you must know everything, as all you have done thus far has been to attempt to discredit whatever anyone else posts.

 

[mkihne]

biged:

I think most comments you have received were based on the premise that you have empty cases in hand and not loaded rounds and were based on your question of how to load these cases with the objective of minimizing case head stretch. That said, I think you received a lot of sound advice on how to do just that, based on the parameters set by you, not the responders. You even received advice to just load them and shoot them, which(if you abandon your initial parameters) is likely the fastest, most efficient and satisfactory(for your needs) manner to address your needs. Worry about bump and head space after fire forming.

BTW, I change your troll rating to 2 on a scale of 10 for lack of subtly and only that high based on dogged persistence. Have a good one. ;D

 

[bigedp51]

biged:
BTW, I change your troll rating to 2 on a scale of 10 for lack of subtly and only that high based on dogged persistence. Have a good one. ;D

Coming from someone I don't know, with a post count of 11 in this forum how much credibility on a scale of 1 to 10 do you think I give you or your oily fingers? :

 

[RonAKA]

It seems to me that your real concern is preventing the case thinning near the head, as you show in the photo below:

If you fire a case over and over again with excessive or even normal headspace it will stretch, go thin, and eventually crack right where you indicate in your photo. The way to prevent it from happening is to only partially size the neck of your case, and not keep bumping the shoulder way back. If the case gets to the point of not chambering easily, then just bump the shoulder 0.001" back. You should be able to get 20+ firings out of each case by using this method. With 300 cases that will require about 4 barrels to use them up.

 

[bigedp51]

Because of the answers given here I decided to open my storage cabinet and dust off some empty fired cases from the 1970s and 80s.

All the following ammunition below was just fired as is without any fireforming.

.243 cases fired in a Remington 700, zero case stretching.
30-06 cases fired in a Remington 760 pump, zero case stretching.
30-06 cases fired in a 1943 03-A4, varied stretching depending on load intensity, some with .008 to .011 thinning in the web.
30-30 cases, forget it I have been using the same cases for over 25 years, zero case stretching and headspaceing on the primer.

Now back to my question, I asked about fireforming in two different locations here at this forum and got many different answers. I was also call a troll for not believing everyones answer. Do you people see "why" there is a lot of room for confusion in all the answers given?

Fireforming search here.

Ten answers on fireforming cases

 

[bigedp51]

It seems to me that your real concern is preventing the case thinning near the head, as you show in the photo below:

If you fire a case over and over again with excessive or even normal headspace it will stretch, go thin, and eventually crack right where you indicate in your photo. The way to prevent it from happening is to only partially size the neck of your case, and not keep bumping the shoulder way back. If the case gets to the point of not chambering easily, then just bump the shoulder 0.001" back. You should be able to get 20+ firings out of each case by using this method. With 300 cases that will require about 4 barrels to use them up.

RonAKA

By careful fireforming my .303 cases and neck sizing only I was lucky enough to get over 32 reloads before the first case failure, a split neck.

I know how to keep a .303 case from stretching, I just wanted to know if anything "special" was done by bench rest shooters that I could apply to my third new .243. Due to a ruptured disk in my neck I stopped hunting and shooting over 15 years ago. I sold off almost all of my rifles and hand guns because of my neck and due to a student loan not going through when I had two son in college. The neck was repaired and for the last ten years I been sidetracked on milsurps and it is time for a "new" rifle and a scope for these old tired eyes.

Forgive me but when the case greasers jumped out of the woodwork I got a little hot under the collar. So yes the 60 year old fart has strong opinions, but he still dropped in and wasn't afraid to ask a simple question.

For my .243 I have the following:

A 1973 dated RCBS Full length resizing die set.
A 1979 dated RCBS Neck sizing die.
A 2010 dated Redding FL die set. (I just had to see the difference from RCBS and it begged me to buy it) :
A 2010 dated Lee Collet die.

 

[AlNyhus]

bigedp51:

Submitted for your approval, in the hope that you're actually willing to explore possibilites, is this photo. Case on the left in its unfired state. Case on the right is the f-formed configuration. The parent cases shoulders are blown forward fully .240 during the f-forming process. There have been no case head seperations, fired cases last upwards of 50+ firings and lubrication is used on the cases during the f-forming process.

How can this be? ???

Theme song for the game show Jeopardy plays softly in the background..... -Al

"Facts are the enemy of truth." - Don Quixote - "Man of La Mancha"

 

[AlNyhus]

Good one! ;D I was hoping you at least had a sense of humor. 8)

Though you did dodge the question nicely........

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[bigedp51]

AlNyhus, Ladies and Germs

I have a fantastic sense of humor and I'm still laughing.

Not a single advocate of oiling and greasing cartridge case can produce a single document from any firearms manufacture, ammunition manufacture or reloading company stating it is safe to lube your cases.

"BUT" anyone reading this posting can see all the warnings I have posted here. The majority of Americans are unfamiliar with the British base crusher system used for measuring cartridge chamber pressure and "how" it worked. This base crusher system was discontinued because of the frequency of proof pressure testing required in Britain before the resale of firearms and the damage it was doing to these firearms during proof testing. The radial copper crusher and later transducer method were adopted without oiling the cartridges for proofing.

Below the red arrow indicates the location of the axial British base crusher and the American radial crusher and tranducer method.

"Under the British base crusher standards described below, proof loads ran 30 to 45% above normal. To maximize breech thrust, proof cartridges were oiled before firing.

In Britain, a third set of crusher standards were developed, using a "base" crusher. The crusher was a short, thick tube placed behind a piston at the base of the cartridge, and the firing pin passed through the center. The cartridge case was well oiled before firing, to minimize cling to the chamber walls (if not oiled, the indicated pressures were about 25% lower). To prevent case rupture on set back of the base, the crusher was first deformed in a press to a pressure a bit lower than that expected in firing. The units were generally stated in British long tons per square inch, or tsi. Pressures indicated by this method run 10 to 20% below those indicated by radial crushers. Kynamco in England still rates their production cartridges with this method."

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

The .303 British cartridge is rated at 45,000 cup or 49,000 psi.

An oiled .303 cartridge delivers 45,600 pounds per square inch of force to the bolt when fired.

A dry non-oiled .303 British cartridge delivers approximately 26,400 pounds per square inch of force to the bolt when fired.

19 tsi = 45,600 cup
12 tsi = 28,800 cup
11 tsi = 26,400 cup
10 tsi = 24,000 cup

Question: Would you rather wear a football helmet and let me hit you on the head with a kids plastic baseball bat, or would let me hit you on the head without the football helmet with a real wooden Louisville Slugger bat.

Moral of story
Bolt thrust can be a real headache! DO NOT oil or grease your cartridge cases.

 

[RonAKA]

Don't worry. In a modern well designed gun the bolt can take it, and does take it. It really does not matter if the force is transferred to the barrel and then the action, or if is transferred to the bolt and then the action. It still goes to the action at the end of the day. There is no free lunch.

A question for you. Are you interested in making your brass last longer? Or, are you just interested in presenting your theories about the evils of lubricating your brass? Hint. These are Yes/No questions.

 

[BoydAllen]

As much as I try to avoid any lubrication of any sort, on ammunition, or in chambers, I have seen one instance where I would probably not worry too much about doing so. This is when fire forming in a chamber that has considerably more volume than the parent case. In this case, the pressure, with powders that are normal for use with a bullet of the weight being used, is limited by the difference in capacity of the parent case, and the case being formed. I should hasten to add that I have not tried this, but I have seen it done, specifically,when making 6PPC cases from .220 Russian.

I remember seeing a veteran (and at the time, record holding) shooter putting a drop of 3 in 1 oil on each case, and meticulously spreading it with his finger tip, just before loading it in his rifle's chamber. I believe that he was doing this to reduce stretching, since the case would be less likely to grab the chamber walls. Knowing the shooter to be a careful sort, I am sure that he dried his chamber, with something like brake cleaner, before proceeding to fire full pressure rounds.

Another advantage may have been that the cases would be more likely to be formed to a snug "headspace" for his chamber. Personally, I would never follow this procedure with a case that was already in its final configuration unless I had specific information as to the pressure that the load would produce, and that pressure was such that the total bolt thrust produced was would be within safe limits for the action.

As to your Springfield's case stretching, that reminds me of an experiment that I did, a long time back, with repeated loadings at the range with a Lee loader. I won't bore you with all the details, but with a middle of the book load for 150 grain jacketed bullets, I found that primer protrusion grew with each firing, and that when a hot book load was fired at the end, a the primers were flush, an incipient separation was produced (bright ring near head). I attributed this to the heavy Springfield firing pin fall (heavy pin and aftermarket spring) combined with the '06 shoulder angle, allowing the case to be driven forward before the powder ignited, and the texture of the military barrel's chamber that caused cases to stick in the forward position. Evidently, the loads were not producing enough pressure to stretch the case to the bolt face, until the last one that was hot.

This test caused me to take another look at low pressure loads in rimless cases, and probable case life with loads of any pressure, in that particular rifle, since it seemed that there was likely to be a small amount of stretching with each firing, even with hot loads in neck sized cases.

 

[Kenny474]

Biged, are you aware of the liability laws in the US? If so, then are you aware of how most all of the loading data in the newer manuals is actually rather conservative, and even the published MAX loads can usually be surpassed by a good amount in a modern rifle without any issues, and sometimes with no actual signs of being over-pressure? Are you aware of why the manuals are written this way?


Plenty of shooters safely exceed the published max loads everyday, as in many newer rifles it's perfectly safe to do so as long as you have the knowledge required to do so safely. Just as many shooters lube their cases when fire-forming, and if done properly in a strong modern rifle, it's perfectly safe to do so. But due to the liability laws in the US, nobody is going to publish anything recommending to do either, as it's too much of a risk as they would be liable if the data was misused.

But, since the companies writing the manuals understand that most of the shooters who have the experience and knowledge required to exceed published max loads or lube cases for fire-forming and do so in a safe manner don't need "permission" from a manual to do so, so there is little benefit from taking the risk and being liable for publishing the data.

You will never see "You need to lube your cases when fire-forming" published in any actual manual, simply because if some idiot goes out and lubes his cases with axle grease and shoots MAX loads when fire-forming brass for his Mil-Surp bolt gun with .020" headspace and removes his face in the process, whoever published the data will likely be liable and can in turn be sued.