Fire forming question

[bigedp51]

BoydAllen

The reloading manuals tell you to NEVER use a cartridge case that has been used for reduced loads with maximum loads because cartridge headspace increases with reduced loads.

If you have a RCBS Precision Mic you can take a fired case and repeatedly dry fire the case and the case will get shorter with each pull of the trigger.

When shooting reduced loads in my Enfields I simply keep a rubber o-ring around the case rim and the case can not move forward with the firing pin strike. (Look no grease involved) : :

 

[Kenny474]

As for minimizing headspace in a "new" rifle, it's done by many shooters, usually by those striving for top accuracy. I have done so to all 3 Savage's I own, and it has been an improvement every time.

Do you think it's beneficial to have .001 over minimum headspace? How will this improve the accuracy or functioning? Why are the chambers in bench rifles cut to minimum spec or smaller if more headspace is going to help?

How consistent do you really think your cases will form without any lube in the chamber when you only want to use reduced loads? It's actually beneficial to have either zero clearance or even a slight crush fit on the brass when using reduced loads, as they often don't have enough pressure to stretch (form) the case properly.

Do you plan to get the "tight groups" you're looking for from the .243 with a rubber O-ring as well? I would love you to point out where and in what manual ANYONE has ever recommended using an O-ring for headspace control. But I'm sure since you are the high authority on firearms and reloading safety that you must have some type of literature to justify your actions, or maybe a carved slate from 300-BC that states it's a safe and common practice to substitute proper machining for clearance with an O-ring?. Or do you think that because your doing "everything right" that the bullets will just fall into the same hole, just like the buck-shot pattern group you posted from your awesome O-ring Enfield?

As for a lack of "industry standard" for fire-forming, it's simply because everyone does things a bit different. There is more than one way to skin a cat, much as there is more than one way to properly fire-form a rifle case. It doesn't mean anyone here is wrong, with you being the exception, only that everyone has a way that works for them. I would think if you had even the slightest idea about fire-forming than that would be obvious before you had even asked the question.

On a side note, I think you owe several of the others here an apology. The way you have insulted some of the members here is really uncalled for. What makes you think for one second that you are more knowledgeable on modern rifles or case forming than some of the others you have insulted after they took the time to try and teach you about fire-forming? You have not owned a modern rifle or loaded for one in 12 years. Has it ever occurred to you that many of these guys have been doing exactly what you claim is impossible and totally unsafe (fire-forming lubed cases) for many years, and yet they are still here and have not had any issues?

 

[AlNyhus]

As much as I try to avoid any lubrication of any sort, on ammunition, or in chambers, I have seen one instance where I would probably not worry too much about doing so. This is when fire forming in a chamber that has considerably more volume than the parent case. In this case, the pressure, with powders that are normal for use with a bullet of the weight being used, is limited by the difference in capacity of the parent case, and the case being formed. I should hasten to add that I have not tried this, but I have seen it done, specifically,when making 6PPC cases from .220 Russian.

I remember seeing a veteran (and at the time, record holding) shooter putting a drop of 3 in 1 oil on each case, and meticulously spreading it with his finger tip, just before loading it in his rifle's chamber. I believe that he was doing this to reduce stretching, since the case would be less likely to grab the chamber walls. Knowing the shooter to be a careful sort, I am sure that he dried his chamber, with something like brake cleaner, before proceeding to fire full pressure rounds.

Another advantage may have been that the cases would be more likely to be formed to a snug "headspace" for his chamber. Personally, I would never follow this procedure with a case that was already in its final configuration unless I had specific information as to the pressure that the load would produce, and that pressure was such that the total bolt thrust produced was would be within safe limits for the action.

Boyd, you've outlined the benefits of case lubing very nicely.

I've been lightly lubing cases (for f-forming) with zero issues for quite a while, now..... initially doing this years ago with my HBR rifle which used a .165 short 308 case. I found that by lightly (there's that word, again) lubing the cases prior to the first firing, the headspace would be more consistent and the case/shoulder junction was fully formed every single time. I then began pushing the shoulders back an additional .020 during the case forming process, using a shell holder that had been faced off. The combination of lightly lubed cases and .020 'excess' headspace for the initial f-forming resulted in perfect cases every time...with one firing. The .020 'excess' headspace was mitigated by jamming the bullets hard into the rifling and using .004-.005 neck tension.

Some of the earliest mention of lubing cases for f-forming came in the 1950's with Rocky Gibbs work on his line of Gibbs wildcats, as they had the shoulders blown forward. More recently, Mike Ratigan makes this recomendation in his excellent book 'Extreme Rifle Accuracy' on pages 115-116 under the heading 'Fire Forming Secrets':

"Put a few drops of light weight oil on a cleaning patch or a small towel. I use 3-in-1 oil. Wipe the outside of each loaded round with the light weight oil. Oiling the case allows the case to slip in the chamber. When the firing pin hits the primer, it will drive the case forward. When the case starts to pressure up, it won't grip the sides of the chamber because of the oil. This will allow the case to be forced back up against the bolt face and it will stay there without stretching in the web area, as seen in figure 12. The neck of the case will be pulled back to fill out the shoulder area, which will reduce the effect of the dreaded donut, as seen in figure 13.

Without the oil, the case will pressure up and grip the chamber around it's circumference, causing it to stretch somewhere. The case grips the chamber with more force than the web area of the case can tolerate, which causes the case to stretch in the web area just above the base. This can lead to head seperation, a spectacular event that should be avoided".

After the initial f-forming, I use the standard practice of keeping the chamber dry and wiping the lube off my cases. Like my good pal (and poster on this thread) mkihne, I take no extraordinary steps to insure the cases are surgically clean...just hold 'em in my never-nicotine-stained-fingers and wipe 'em off with a clean towel.

It goes without saying that this should only be done in modern rifle actions. That the reloader have an above average grasp of the process and the ability or desire to think a bit outside the box, is when a reloader becomes a handloader, in my opinion.

On a site like this, my assumption is that certain basic principles need not be addressed...that we're all a bit advanced in our knowledge base and practices...or we wouldn't be on a forum about rifle accuracy. And my assumption may not be accurate.

We all can gain knowledge from these forums...I know I have.

Not meant as a rebuke of any sort, to anyone. Just my thoughts on it.

Good shootin' to all.

Respectfully to all, -Al

 

[jonbearman]

Beside's the diferent type's of answer's on this thread,I have learned more on the subject of fireforming than any book could teach me.I may agree or sometime's disagree with certain practice's used but have never even heard of some.I am delighted that this subject came up and have learned more on the subject than I have a right to.I have been on this forum for a short time and posted quite a bit with great results on all subject matter.I just want to thank all the responder's for teacing me so much on this subject that I knew little about.Keep it coming folk's.

 

[bigedp51]

Kenny474

The British Enfield forums are global and a Canadian told me about the o-ring fireforming trick and it works very well, the only problem with the o-ring is in tightly headspaced Enfields and have clearance to use the o-ring. If your Enfield has tighter headspace then you use a false shoulder for fire forming. As backwoods and crude as it may seem, I pick the o-ring over lubing cases and I have gotten over 30 reloads by doing so on the military .303 Enfield.

Any method such as seating your bullets long, false shoulders or a simple rubber o-ring will hold the cartridge case against the bolt face "WITHOUT" lubrication causing additional bolt thrust.

Read this about bolt thrust.
http://www.eabco.com/WSM01.htm

I came to this forum looking for consistency and uniformity in reloading and what I found are two schools of thought and a peer pressure group of "good ol' boys" trying their best to get people to join their camp. To the case greasers I say "NO THANKS" and no way am I joining YOUR band wagon. I don't need a torque wrench attached to my reloading press and I'm sure as hell not going to oil or grease cartridge cases. The shame of it here in this forum is accuracy is achieved with consistency and uniformity and you don't have any here because you have two sets of standards..............greasing and non-greasing.

I spent over 25 years as an Master Level Inspector on aircraft and tactical support equipment at a military depot putting my inspectors stamp on other peoples work. If the mechanics didn't follow the manual and the safety protocols my inspectors stamp didn't get put on the item. I will NEVER put my inspectors stamp on a greased cartridge case, you are adding bolt thrust every time you lubricate your cases and ignoring all the safety warnings. And to add to your disregard of these warnings you even brag about it in public.

I know where you are come from Kenny474, I know why you do it, but lubing cases isn't something that should be discussed in an open forum when "Murphys Law" can strike at any time. And Kenny474 I don't grease my cases in public or in private, and its as simple as that.

 

[bigedp51]

As a side note to my above post last night I found an archived posting by Boyd Allen dated from 2008 where a fellow 6mmbr shooter was having pressure related problems after cleaning his bore. A well used chamber cleaning mop was causing the pressure spikes because it was contaminated with bore solvent.

It didn't say this in the 2008 BoydAllen posting but two problems were going on at the same time. Oil in the chamber was causing additional bolt thrust with "full power loads" and a oily liquid was was being forced into the bore and causing the pressure spikes and flattened primers.

The oil and cartridge case warnings were put there for a reason and lighting can strike at any time.

97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures. This statement is one of the first things taught to a Quality Control Inspector, its "Murphys Law".

 

[Kenny474]

Biged, where you are wrong, is that NOBODY is pushing anything on anyone. Some of us are simply trying to make the point that there are other ways to get the job done than what you feel is acceptable. But for some reason, you are continually trying to say we are wrong. The point I am trying to make is simple, just because you don't agree doesn't make lubing cases, or any other practice that you don't agree with "wrong" or unsafe.

But the biggest issue I have is that you feel it necessary to be insulting and arrogant. You continually throw personal jabs at people, and for what reason I don't know. If you don't agree with what is posted, than just don't use that method. There is no need to get personal and make attacks at those you don't agree with.

This forum is not what I would call "beginner information", and most here understand that many of the practices we use are not in any loading manual. This is also not an something where you need "consistency and uniformity". You are way off base with that assumption. We are all consistent with the practices we each employ, and that is all that matters. You have really come here with the wrong attitude and outlook on what is right.

You have made one statement that really shows your skill level, and says a lot of what you know and understand about precision shooting.
"I came to this forum looking for consistency and uniformity in reloading and what I found are two schools of thought and a peer pressure group of "good ol' boys" trying their best to get people to join their camp. The shame of it here in this forum is accuracy is achieved with consistency and uniformity and you don't have any here because you have two sets of standards..............greasing and non-greasing."

So, what you are saying is that since we all think differently, we can not achieve accuracy? That is so far from the truth it's laughable. If you had even the slightest clue about how to achieve accuracy, or even what the forum is about, you never would have even considered posting that. In case you are unaware, we have members who hold records for accuracy. So evidently we must be doing something right.

Nobody is asking for any inspectors stamp from you either, as we don't need your permission. You are a newbie with a lot to learn, and honestly, I'm sure that nobody on the entire forum cares what you think or if you agree. You have brought nothing to the table in terms of experience or ideas, so I don't see how you feel you are fit to judge. You are involved in aviation, not precision shooting and reloading, so all your credentials mean nothing to anyone here. Nor does the same school of thought apply, as there is no "national standard" in shooting or how to achieve accuracy.

Come off your high horse, stop being a pompous ass, and maybe you can learn a bit from some of the members here. Many of us achieve accuracy that you likely never will, and many also have a lot more knowledge than you as well. If you would like to take advantage of it, it here for the taking.

When you accept that YOU are the one with a lot to learn, maybe you will get something out of the site. But as long as you sit on your high horse, thinking you know everything and understand accuracy more than anyone else, you are just wasting your time along with everyone else here who might try to help you learn.

Until you come here with an open mind, accept that not everything is black and white, understand that just because you don't agree with something it doesn't make it incorrect, and leave the know-it-all attitude at home, you are simply a waste of time to try and talk to.

And trust me, nothing you know about aviation inspection applies here. Two different worlds, as there is no absolute standard or right way in precision shooting and handloading.

And just an FYI, I shot my smallest group ever over the weekend using my torque wrench method with Lee collet dies. .08" for 5 shots at 100yds. Those are results from personal ingenuity. Not from "industry standard". When you can touch that, than you might have something to bring to the table.

 

[RonAKA]

I can't afford to listen to your "expert" advice Kenny474 it would have cost $179.97 plus shipping and there was nothing wrong with my rifle in the first place. ;D My question was about fireforming cases with a false shoulder and it degenerated into a pissing contest about lubing cases and who the "big boys" were in this forum.

Barrel life on a .243 is about 1500 rounds. You bought 300 rounds of brass, that you feel you need to "fireform". By the time you have fireformed them all, you will have used up about 20% of the life of your barrel. New barrel costs around $500 installed, and ammo about 50 cents each. So I make your total cost to fireform 300 rounds to be about $250, not counting the cost of O-rings and degreasing fluid.

I would suggest your best option is to return the Winchester brass, and buy 100 Lapua cases. Then just shoot it. Instead of costing you an additional $250 to get "good" brass, you will probably save about $80, from where you are now.

 

[Kenny474]

When the hell did I ever state that I lubricated any of the cases I fire in any of my rifles? Before you put words into anyone's mouth, you should really get the facts straight.

Since you don't seem to understand this area yet either, setting the headspace to the minimum is something done very frequently by shooters who are tuning their rifles for MAXIMUM ACCURACY. I never said your rifle was broken, only that it could be improved (accuracy and case life) by reducing the headspace to the absolute minimum. I just thought you seemed serious about trying to get the most out of your rifle, so I suggested a way to make the cases fit the chamber nearly perfect without any forming or false shoulders. Since I do it to all my rifles, and I know several other shooters that do as well, I thought you would probably understand the benefits that come with the modification and do it yourself.

I, as well as several others, thought you had some idea about precision reloading, and possibly a bit of knowledge about precision rifles as well. If any of us had known you were simply clueless about the whole subject, I doubt anyone would have ever replied. You walked into a world you know nothing about, and now you feel fit to judge?

You have also taken everything out of context in the entire thread and twisted it into something it never was. Nothing we have stated is unsafe. You may feel differently, and your allowed to feel however you want.

You simply are not on the same level of performance that most on the forum have achieved or are striving for. You are not looking for the same thing we are, therefore you will never understand why we do what we do. You are happy with a factory Steven's and the .75MOA accuracy it will likely produce. Most here are looking for much better. Closer to .100" or better at 100yds, compared to the Steven's .75" at 100yds. That is why many of us gave you suggestions like we did, because we had thought you wanted to improve the rifle as much as possible.

But as far as saying anything about kicking me or anyone else, it's simply uncalled for. I would throw your ass out of here if I was a moderator just for the blatant disrespect you have shown the forum and many of the members with your insulting comments. How dare you come here and insult the people who are trying to help you. You claim to be in your sixties, but you act like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum because you didn't get your way. Only it's because you don't agree with how others feel or how they fire-form their brass. Your antics are simply pathetic. I would have expected this from a teenager, but never an adult in his sixties.

About you claiming someone has posted "unsafe information that's only a click away", nothing here is unsafe if used with care and in the proper manner. The only person here posting unsafe practice is you, as you continually twist the words of others into what you want it to read, and it's always far from the truth.

As for your "group", it only proves you are not after the same level of performance that most on the forum are. Many here would be worried if that was the best their rifle could do. Most members want their rifles to shoot under .25" at 100yds every time, and most desire even smaller.

I'm totally through with you and your BS. Go cry elsewhere. If you don't like the information that's here, than leave. It's a pretty simple concept. It's hard to believe you are as immature as you are at 60+.

 

[Kenny474]

When you joined the forum and stated you wanted to shoot "tiny groups from your Steven's .243", I thought you really wanted to put in some effort to make it shoot actual tiny groups. Since I have a couple Steven's and a Savage as well, and also have a good idea as to what modifications will make a good bit of improvement, I was more than willing to share what I have learned with you and try to help you build a really accurate Steven's.

But then you turned into a complete ass as soon as I made a simple suggestion. I know, your headspace is fine. But what you don't understand, is that by minimizing your headspace you will not need to form any cases, they will last longer, and in my experience they don't need the shoulders bumped near as often either. On my newest Savage, reducing the headspace so brass was a slight crush fit even improved my accuracy by a good amount. But it's all a waste of time anyway, since your rifle is perfect and nothing will increase the accuracy because it's yours and you're obviously the best at everything. :

Most people would love to have tips from someone who has a very similar rifle, especially if they tell them simple modifications that will increase the accuracy by a big margin. Back when I first came here, and I had just started to get really serious about accuracy, I took all the suggestions I could get. Many of them improved my shooting by a good bit. Others helped me build a super accurate rifle. But I wouldn't know near as much as I do now if I came here thinking I knew it all. I still learn every day that I log on, and hope to learn for a long time still. Many of the guys and gals here have a lot of information and experience to share, and are happy to help you out if you are grateful.

But for some reason you have come here feeling that you know more than everyone. I don't understand that one bit, as you have not said a single thing that shows you have even the slightest understanding of precision shooting, loading or how a precision rifle is built.

Whatever, I'm just glad I'm not you. That would be a terrible life to live, as I hate ignorance, and you just happen to be the king of that.

 

[AlNyhus]

biged: In front of me, I have several articles in well known print publications that address the subject of lubing cases for f-forming purposes. You may recognize some of the names of these publications:
-Shooting Times
-Handloaders Digest
-Precision Shooting Magazine
-Handloader Magazine
-The Benchrest Shooting Primer
-Varmint Hunter Magazine
-Extreme Rifle Accuracy

Heck, you might even recognize some of the authors names:
-Layne Simpson
-Rick Jamison
-Fred Sinclair
-Mike Walker (you know..the guy that designed the Rem 700 action. ;D)
-Norman E. Johnson
-Mike Ratigan

I could cite a few dozen more examples, but hopefully these are enough to assuage your feelings that this isn't some site spewing dangerous info. At the very least, it's given you a few more people that you can be verbally abusive toward, should you choose to ratchet up your rant to the next level. :

Choosing to ignore the parameters in which my advice was given (ie: f-forming only), not-so-artfully dodging several questions and examples, resorting to personal attacks when others ideas don't conform to your views, and using extreme and unrelated examples to make your point (ie: an unfortunate injury with an old military rifle), all show that you're not simply not willing...and possibly not able...to process information in a logical and orderly manner.

In either case, this has just degenerated into a pissing match and that's not something I'm willing to waste my time with.

Should you wish to reply to me concerning this, please do so by using the PM feature. -Al


"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)

 

[bigedp51]

Kenny474

I'm not a bench rest shooter, I don't shoot in competition, the rifle cost less than $300.00 on sale, why would I want to spend another $200.00 to adjust the headspace tighter when this will take this brand new rifle "below" minimum headspace standards and unable to chamber factory ammunition. I'm retired on a fixed income and I asked a simple question looking for a simple solution.

I asked about fireforming a .243 here in this forum because I now have gauges that can measure stretching in the web area. Benchrest shooters generally have every gauge imaginable and I wanted to know if .005 head gap clearance would stretch and distort the cases in a standard commercial chamber. I asked because all I have been doing for the past six years has been shooting .303 British Enfields with chambers the size of blimp hangers.

Kenny474, if you thought a 60 year old man wanted to start benchrest shooting late in life you were mistaken. I just bought a new rifle and put a scope on it because its getting hard to see the iron sights on my milsurps any more.

The subject of lubing cases does not belong in an open forum, too many young shooters and reloaders are starting out and some of them are going to get in serious trouble because of it. If this oil or lube is squeezed forward into the bore its going overpressure and anything can happen. The accumulated effects of excess bore thrust are also known to cause wear and damage.

As Boyd Allen pointed out if a benchrest shooter with a 6mmbr leaves bore solvent in the chamber and gets flattened primers, what do you think will happen if you mix youth, enthusiasm and too much oil or lube to the equation.

 

[deadlyswift]

Are we men! Or Women!! Why so much Drama! Settle the arguement by just sticking to what you believe and move on! No reason for some trying to have the last word! Sounds like Girls night out to me!!!

I'm sure I just pissed a few off with that comment, but really come on guy's! There are better way's to debate! If a debate is even really needed! This thread is 5 pages long! Started out good, and I was following it! Came back after a cpl of days and thought what the H*** Did my Wife and her friends join this site!!?? ???

 

[wooger]

what do you think will happen if you mix youth, enthusiasm and too much oil or lube to the equation.

 

[bigedp51]

Are we men! Or Women!! Why so much Drama! Settle the arguement by just sticking to what you believe and move on! No reason for some trying to have the last word! Sounds like Girls night out to me!!!

I'm sure I just pissed a few off with that comment, but really come on guy's! There are better way's to debate! If a debate is even really needed! This thread is 5 pages long! Started out good, and I was following it! Came back after a cpl of days and thought what the H*** Did my Wife and her friends join this site!!?? ???

If you think this is bad you should be in an Enfield forum where you mix coffee and tea with Eisenhower and Montgomery and then sprinkle Vegemite on it.

Just add Elle Macpherson a Koala bear and stir gently while bringing to a boil. :

 

[jo191145]

Al Nyhus had the correct answer so many pages ago. You can't push a rope. Not even a thick one.

I submit that if mankind only stretched its imagination and ingenuity to what was already written in a book and deemed "safe" we would still be banging two sticks together to make a loud bang.
Just try explaining that to a rope!!!!

FYI for all the newbies reading this post.
Only tool I purchased to remove a Savage barrel was the nut wrench.
Barrel vise is easily made by anyone slightly competent and owning a few tools.
I've never understood why anyone would want a barrel vice, nut wrench and an action wrench on a Savage but go for it if you like.

Adjusting headspace UNDER Saami specs is PERFECTLY safe if not safer. (more supported web area) (less brass stretch upon fireforming)

4 Savage actions and over 35 barrels. I never use a go guage for any of them.
Just a smidge of common sense goes a long way.

You can look up the definition of common sense in a book but it can't be aquired in that fashion.

Jamming a bullet into the lands is NEVER a quarentee you won't see web stretching. It will make it more likely the gun will go bang.
The firing pin strike is most likely strong enough to push that bullet further into the lands or case.

I'm all done pushin. Have a great day folks.

 

[bigedp51]

Long ago a young man just out of the service bought a brand spanking new Remington 788 in .243 and on the advice of a co-worker and a retired Air Force CMSgt he lubed his cases with resizing lubricant.

A short time later this young man bought a defective brick of Remington primers that ruptured and etched his bolt face. Remington agreed to fix the rifle for free because the recalled primers caused the problem.

Approximately six weeks after mailing the rifle back to Remington the service manager calls the young man and accuse him of shooting over pressure hand loads. The young man tells the service manager the rifle was sent back to have the bolt replaced due to defective Remington primers.

We know that said the service manager but the bolt and receiver are damaged from over pressure and the manager asked what load was the young man was shooting. The young man tells the service manager his load was 43 grains of 785 ball powder with a 100 grain bullet.

The manager said that load wouldn't do it, and then the service manager asks the young man a question that nearly floored him. The service manager asked the young man if he had been lubing his ammunition. The young man said yes because he was told it keeps the cases from stretching.

A long angry silence followed and the manager finally said Remington wasn't going to pay to fix the rifle because the young mans abuse of this rifle had caused bolt setback and the manager hung up the phone. More weeks go by with letters and phone calls back and forth and the young man had never heard of bolt set back and wasn't sure why the manager accused him of abusing his new .243 rifle.

Moral of story, Remington fixed the rifle but the young man paid for half of the repairs and the young man was told by a Remington service manager to "NEVER" lube another cartridge case again.

 

[RonAKA]

Interesting story. Can you explain how lubrication on the cartridge case, caused the primer to rupture?

 

[BoydAllen]

Second paragraph

 

[bigedp51]

Interesting story. Can you explain how lubrication on the cartridge case, caused the primer to rupture?

The primers failed because they were defective and Remington agreed to fix/replace the bolt. (I had two completely separate problems) When Remington received the rifle and went to repair it they found "additional" damages to the bolt and receiver lug recesses due to bolt thrust which cause bolt lug and receiver lug area setback. What I was actually told at that time was the rifle failed headspace testing and that I had over stressed the action.

At age 23 the words bolt thrust and bolt set back didn't mean a great deal to me at that time, but what I did know was Remington was blaming me for half the damages to the rifle because I had lubed the cartridge cases. What I can tell you is during some very heated telephone conversations about this rifle with the Remington technical representative, I was told that is was a very dumb idea to lube any cartridge case. (expletives have been deleted)

So I've been a non-greaser longer than I have been a non-smoker and I was told both can be hazardous to your health. You will never change my mind about it because I have read too much on the subject "and" experienced it first hand. I have heard in recent years that the Remington 788 had bolt thrust problems and was discontinued but these may just be Internet rumors.

Please note that to this very day the British military still proof pressure check all small arms using an oiled proof pressure cartridge. The purpose of this is to put the maximum force possible on the bolt to simulate extreme combat conditions.

The Remington 788 and the Enfield rifle both have rear locking lugs, and bolt thrust effects them more than any other type action. BUT the effects of bolt thrust are still the same on any rifle with an oiled cartridge, the case can't grip the chamber walls and more force is delivered to the bolt. This accelerates wear on the rifle and speeds the increase in headspace growth. Meaning the rifle is taking an increased pounding each time you pull the trigger.