finding lands?

[Ccrider]

This one has been going on for a while. Seems we are.talking about two different things.

Headspace: just my thoughts. You don't want to set your die up for a shoulder bump until your brass is fully fire formed. This may take 3 or more firings. Until then you can use a full length sizing or bushing die to just size the neck not adjusting it down to bump the shoulder. I use a very simple method to tell when my brass is fully fireformed. I chamber a piece of fired and unsized brass and if it chambers easily then it is not fireformed fully. If it chamber snug its fire formed. Then i make sure my die is backed off, raise the brass up fully into the die and slowly turn the die down till it just makes contact with the shoulder. You can feel the extra resistance. With a bushing die this is real easy. Just leave out the bushing.

Size a piece of fired brass with that adjustment and try chambering it. It should chamber tight still. If so turn the die down a tiny bit and size again. Continue In tiny increments until your brass chambers easily. Lock the die down then. You can take all the measurements you want now.

Finding the lands: that wheeler method is a beautiful thing. But.i just want something quick and dirty. Remember we are just looking for a datum to start seating depth test from. Doesn't matter what it is as long as the measurement is repeatable. I simply use the stoney point. I use what I call a hard jam. After inserting the bullet with the stony point I lightly tap the rod pushing the bullet till it stops. Then remove and measure. I find it quite repeatable. From there there is really only one direction to go. Away from the lands.

This is informative. I do the same thing and felt kind of left out as everyone else seemed to be using the strip bolt method.

 

[Drop Port]

My Hornady tool repeats within .001 every time.

The bolt drop method might get within .0005.

Maybe I’m the worlds best Hornady tool operator, but I doubt that.

+1
Stand the rifle vertical and it will be one of the most accurate methods, you can feel the wight of the bullet in the tip of your finger as you raise the rod, you can feel the slightest touch.

 

[WIB3]

The Wheeler method is spot on. It’s very simple and repeatable. If tooling marks are critical than break the barrel in. I always look at my new barrels and have never seen anything that would impair a bullet. If you happen to have deep tooling ridges, might want to look for a new gunsmith. Alex’s method of finding headspace and bullet touch point are simple and proven. Why purchase unnecessary equipment that collects dust in your reloading room.

 

[jimmymac]

We tend to complicate things that should be easy.

Finding touch with the Wheeler method is stupid easy. Stripping a bolt takes all of about a minute so I don’t understand the hesitancy. I’ll never do it any other way.

 

[WIB3]

Yes, we are referring to custom actions here. These are manufactured by artists of the trade. The gunsmiths who put them together are professionals.

 

[WIB3]

Don’t understand why everyone wants to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Richard Coody]

Yes, we are referring to custom actions here. These are manufactured by artists of the trade. The gunsmiths who put them together are professionals.

Yep

But everyone on this forum doesn't have such a work of art. I am sure that anything coming out of Alex and many other custom builders shop is a work of art. Many on this forum shoot factory rifles. The savages shoot very well but certainly are not up to custom standards. As I have said that bolt drop on a custom rifle is a beautiful thing. For me I have never found it necessary to find "touch".

 

[INTJ]

The Wheeler method is spot on. It’s very simple and repeatable. If tooling marks are critical than break the barrel in. I always look at my new barrels and have never seen anything that would impair a bullet. If you happen to have deep tooling ridges, might want to look for a new gunsmith. Alex’s method of finding headspace and bullet touch point are simple and proven. Why purchase unnecessary equipment that collects dust in your reloading room.

My Hornady tools hardly collect dust, and I don't need to pull the ejector every time I check seating depth. I check seating depth a lot. After every match and after most range sessions. Finding the lands is NOT something you do only once......

That said, without question, the 100% absolute best no compromises way to find the lands perfectly and exactly every time is with a good bore scope.......

 

[mikecr]

I like the old cleaning rod method to find max COAL, then measure CBTO off a round made to that max COAL, and log it. http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/06/finding-maximum-cartridge-length-in-a-chamber/
I use an 'R-P Tool' which provides metal measuring collars and a blunt jag for this. Same method.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

My Hornady tools hardly collect dust, and I don't need to pull the ejector every time I check seating depth. I check seating depth a lot. After every match and after most range sessions. Finding the lands is NOT something you do only once......

That said, without question, the 100% absolute best no compromises way to find the lands perfectly and exactly every time is with a good bore scope.......

How does a borescope find the lands?

 

[INTJ]

How does a borescope find the lands?

Every time I put in the borescope I find the lands immediately......right after the throat.....

 

[Wooly]

I have the old Forster version of that. Bought the Hornady tool and almost forgot about it. After putzing around with the Hornady, I brought it out of retirement and get MUCH more consistent readings. The only downside is it measures off the OAL of the bullet, so as stated above, it's best to use a mean average length bullet.

I have the Hornady tool as well but I get better results with the Sinclair. I think because with it I use an actual fired case, fired in the chamber I am loading for.

Also, I measure the bullet, and seat the bullet with a comparator. That takes all the variance out vice measuring from the tips.

The Sinclair measurement is where I start from. I play with the depth until I get the bullet just touching the lands. It usually takes a couple of tries but the Redding Competition Seater dies makes it easy.

I loaded 30 rounds of 308 for testing today. 10 SMK 168's, 10 Hornady 178 ELD-X, and 10 Berger 175 VLDH. Found the lands on all of them.

Headed to the range in the morning to shoot some groups and get some chronograph readings.

 

[dgeesaman]

How does a borescope find the lands?

It looks for them. ba-dum-ching

 

[jimmymac]

Every time I put in the borescope I find the lands immediately......right after the throat.....

If that’s all your trying to do, just look down the business end! No bore scope required. Bolt out please.

 

[Hohn]

I tried the wheeler method on my Savage. No luck, the feel on lift is the same regardless of oal.

Back to the Stoney point tool..

 

[Killick]

I like the old cleaning rod method to find max COAL, then measure CBTO off a round made to that max COAL, and log it. http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/06/finding-maximum-cartridge-length-in-a-chamber/
I use an 'R-P Tool' which provides metal measuring collars and a blunt jag for this. Same method.

Yes, that's the method I showed earlier in this thread except I used shaft collars instead of tape.

 

[hpshooter]

I tried the wheeler method on my Savage. No luck, the feel on lift is the same regardless of oal.

Back to the Stoney point tool..

I use the Wheeler method on my Savage PTA 6.5x47 Lapua. With a disassembled bolt, extractor and ejector removed and one wrap of Scotch tape to keep the bolt head retainer pin in place the bolt drops freely when the bullet is seated to contact the lands.

On one of my Remington .222's that has the old style riveted in extractor I use the old split case neck system. Slit the neck of a sized case to make a two fingered "collet" chuck, seat very long chamber the dummy round extract and measure cartridge base to ogive. Has been very repeatable for me. Have both the straight and curved Hornady tools and use them also, mostly on the service rifles.

 

[mikecr]

There are two reasons to measure land relationship to seated bullet:
For expected jump in pressure ITL -vs- OTL.
For maintaining an ITL condition if load developed there & desired.

For most of us, we should put greater efforts into full seating testing (at reduced pressure), and assign precision toward reproducing best tested CBTO. We don't even need to know the actual land relationship in this. Just put the bullet where it shoots best, and move on to powder development.

 

[INTJ]

I am building a 33-28 Nosler on a CRF M-70. I had the barrel chambered and was wondering if I needed to lengthen the throat. I don't have the reamer print.

I first thought I was going to have to make a COL case to use with my Hornady gauge. Then I remembered the Wheeler method. So I put the action back in the barrel (barrel was still in the lathe), and followed the Wheeler approach.

The throat length was close enough so I didn't have to get out the throating reamer.

 

[6.5grendel]

I tried the wheeler method on my Savage. No luck, the feel on lift is the same regardless of oal.

Back to the Stoney point tool..

What all did you dissasemble from the bolt? The Wheeler method works on Savage actions just like most other actions. On savages I take the rear baffle off that is right in front of the bolt handle, remove the firing pin along with cocking sleeve and sleeve pin, and the ejector. That makes for a free falling bolt when closed. No resistance at all. You do have to hook the rim of the case behind the extractor when you put the case in for testing or you will get resistance from having to push the extractor over the case rim. Most actions don't have the rear baffle that needs to be removed on the savages. I can take pictures later if your interested in trying again. I do it pretty often now and like stated earlier by someone, it only takes me about a minute to dissasemble it now. Let me know if you have any questions or just PM me.