finding lands?

[WIB3]

Proper case to chamber fit is absolutely critical for accuracy.

 

[steelholder]

The Wheeler method works, and works well. If you are looking for touch, use a new piece of brass. If you are not able to get a free bolt drop there’s something wrong. With new brass the bolt should drop. If so listen to the directions on the video. If the bolt hangs up you might want to consider a new sizing die and establish a proper head space first. .002” is the norm for head space.

I do want to use this method but have not been able to get a new piece of brass. Correct me if im wrong but even a factor round that been pulled is not considered virgin right?

 

[David Christian]

I do want to use this method but have not been able to get a new piece of brass. Correct me if im wrong but even a factor round that been pulled is not considered virgin right?

@steelholder, you do not need virgin brass. Start by resizing a piece of fired brass from your rifle. I only bump the shoulders .002 and with the bolt stripped and cleaned it will always drop by gravity with the empty case chambered.

have you removed the ejector and spring?

 

[WIB3]

You should be able to place a piece of brass, new or sized, in the chamber and the bolt should drop freely. The bolt like Alex explains should be bare. It’s critical that you can get to this point. Like I said, head space first, than bullet touch point. If you’re die does not accomplish this than you might want to consider a custom die. I’m talking about measurements smaller than a human hair. It’s critical for optimum accuracy, and not necessarily cheap.

 

[WIB3]

Proper head space first, than worry about touch point. After that, bullet choice, seating depth, primer choice, powder choice and powder weight. Welcome to the game.

 

[steelholder]

@steelholder, you do not need virgin brass. Start by resizing a piece of fired brass from your rifle. I only bump the shoulders .002 and with the bolt stripped and cleaned it will always drop by gravity with the empty case chambered.

have you removed the ejector and spring?

The ejector plunger and spring have been removed.
As you guys already know I'm new to the precision thing and have only ever used a neck sizer.
David, what do you mean by "bumping" the case shoulder .002? Can you please give an example of what a before and after measurement should look like?
I'm using a lee FL resizing die, is there a preset number of turns that will achieve this?

I've been playing with a case and turning the die in slightly and noticed the pressure is almost gone and the bolt handle falls on its on but not the way it does without a case. Im kind of guessing with turnimg the die right now and want to understand exactly what would make it drop like the video. Thanks for all your patience and advice guys.

 

[INTJ]

If you get the Hornady tools you can easily set your size die to achieve .002" of shoulder bump. You measure a fired case at the shoulder, set the sizer die long, size, and move the die closer in very small increments until the fired case is .002" shorter than it was.

 

[tom]

@steelholder

We should solve the empty case dragging problem first, as it also will help your final precision in the end.

Tools,.. it appears you have the necessary stuff to strip the bolt of pin and ejector. All you need is a caliper, a shoulder datum tool to hook on that caliper. A micrometer, a piece of paper, and a pencil or pen.

I'm thinking you just haven't set the shoulder short enough yet. If you feel tension as you close, you either have long shoulders or long cases. If you feel nothing much closing, but have a slight click at the extraction cam, you have a die to big in diameter for the chamber. Just draw the case and write down what it measures before and after sizing at the base, and shoulder for diameter, and also base to shoulder datum for length.

For me, I find a shoulder bump that falls free, but doesn't allow me to unseat the lugs (wiggle your stripped bolt back and forth with nothing in the chamber to feel what i mean). I write that down when the barrel is new, and bump about another .001. FL size with a die that gives me the right fit every time, and cases last pretty much forever. I do have a bump gage made with my reamer, but this can be done with simple tools as well. Just remember you are measuring a length to a diameter of a shoulder that may be whatever angle, and the angle in the die may or may not be the same as the chamber. This isn't the end of the world, but it only means that a measurement of ".002" bump" may not be exactly .002", because the diameter of the gage may not be the diameter of where the shoulder is making contact.

If you've been neck sizing only for to many firings, you might have to start over with new cases to really know if you have a good die to chamber match. And then just slip your neck sizer into the trash, and you should be good to go.

Tom

Edit to add an example i just went out and did.

Notice I've got my bump "zero" wrote for this barrel at the header. .200 up would be a better place to take the base diameter measurements, but my ammo boxes leave a nice visual ring at about .270 up so I can repeat the micrometer placement.

To the O.P., YES any case that is free of drag can be used.

 

[M14AMU]

Smoke a dummy bullet and it'll tell you exactly where the lands/ogive are!

 

[steelholder]

@tom

Thank you I got to size a piece of brass were the bolt drops by itself, I think I can recreate it and ill start the Wheeler method this weekend.

Whats the general opinion of the method where you apply enough tension to the neck and finger fit a bullet, then chamber it and push the cartridge out the muzzle with the bolt out carefully? Ive heard this get good results for finding where the ogive meets the lands.

 

[tom]

@tom

Thank you I got to size a piece of brass were the bolt drops by itself, I think I can recreate it and ill start the Wheeler method this weekend.

Whats the general opinion of the method where you apply enough tension to the neck and finger fit a bullet, then chamber it and push the cartridge out the muzzle with the bolt out carefully? Ive heard this get good results for finding where the ogive meets the lands.

It's a good method to get started. It winds up being in the lands a bit, depending on just how easily the bullet can be pushed in. The Wheeler method is more repeatable, which allows you to see changes due to wear more confidently is why i do it this way. It may give you a heads up as to when to verify best seating again.

Tom

Tom

 

[David Christian]

@steelholder, do you own a headspace comparator, like this:


https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012743827

measure before any sizing activity, then keep turning your die down and resize the brass until it moves the datum on the case shoulder .002 less.

 

[dgeesaman]

@tom

Thank you I got to size a piece of brass were the bolt drops by itself, I think I can recreate it and ill start the Wheeler method this weekend.

Whats the general opinion of the method where you apply enough tension to the neck and finger fit a bullet, then chamber it and push the cartridge out the muzzle with the bolt out carefully? Ive heard this get good results for finding where the ogive meets the lands.

I just did one like that yesterday. I used a neck bushing of appropriate size to make the bullet a barely snug fit, then I squeezed the neck to make it a tiny bit eggy and now it holds the bullet well enough to measure. I used a sharp toothy set of pliers to pull the bullet back out long and made sure I wasn’t biting on where the bullet touched the lands.

Closing the bolt there was some resistance and after three trials they repeated within .001”.

I’m the past I skipped the step of neck sizing to a close fit and just used fired brass as-is. I think it works better to size the neck down close first.

I did not have time or reason to strip my bolt and perform a wheeler measurement. I’m sure that if I did, I would do this first to eliminate a whole bunch of trials and start that process a lot closer to touch.

David

 

[Alex Wheeler]

About all I can ad at this point is to be sure you have a straight case. New brass can have a lot of runout which will cause drag in the freebore. Look for one with less than .002" tir on your concentricity gage. If you dont have one, and your having trouble with the click going away thats your problem or your chamber has too tight of a freebore. I learned the deep creek method at deep creek, I just made the video to share it.
I still like a free drop on sized brass too

 

[steelholder]

Once you guys reach an average for where the lands maybe the bullet will have to be seated much higher than what's recommended in reloading books. You then deduct .050 or so and start working your way back towards the lands gradually. How do you know how much powder to use on a bullet that is being seated much higher? Is this also trial and error?

 

[WIB3]

@steelholder

We should solve the empty case dragging problem first, as it also will help your final precision in the end.

Tools,.. it appears you have the necessary stuff to strip the bolt of pin and ejector. All you need is a caliper, a shoulder datum tool to hook on that caliper. A micrometer, a piece of paper, and a pencil or pen.

I'm thinking you just haven't set the shoulder short enough yet. If you feel tension as you close, you either have long shoulders or long cases. If you feel nothing much closing, but have a slight click at the extraction cam, you have a die to big in diameter for the chamber. Just draw the case and write down what it measures before and after sizing at the base, and shoulder for diameter, and also base to shoulder datum for length.

For me, I find a shoulder bump that falls free, but doesn't allow me to unseat the lugs (wiggle your stripped bolt back and forth with nothing in the chamber to feel what i mean). I write that down when the barrel is new, and bump about another .001. FL size with a die that gives me the right fit every time, and cases last pretty much forever. I do have a bump gage made with my reamer, but this can be done with simple tools as well. Just remember you are measuring a length to a diameter of a shoulder that may be whatever angle, and the angle in the die may or may not be the same as the chamber. This isn't the end of the world, but it only means that a measurement of ".002" bump" may not be exactly .002", because the diameter of the gage may not be the diameter of where the shoulder is making contact.

If you've been neck sizing only for to many firings, you might have to start over with new cases to really know if you have a good die to chamber match. And then just slip your neck sizer into the trash, and you should be good to go.

Tom

Edit to add an example i just went out and did.
View attachment 1178934
Notice I've got my bump "zero" wrote for this barrel at the header. .200 up would be a better place to take the base diameter measurements, but my ammo boxes leave a nice visual ring at about .270 up so I can repeat the micrometer placement.

To the O.P., YES any case that is free of drag can be used.

Nicely done. You should write a book. Seriously. Walt B

 

[KY_Windage]

Proper head space first, than worry about touch point. After that, bullet choice, seating depth, primer choice, powder choice and powder weight. Welcome to the game.

The ejector plunger and spring have been removed.
As you guys already know I'm new to the precision thing and have only ever used a neck sizer.
David, what do you mean by "bumping" the case shoulder .002? Can you please give an example of what a before and after measurement should look like?
I'm using a lee FL resizing die, is there a preset number of turns that will achieve this?

I've been playing with a case and turning the die in slightly and noticed the pressure is almost gone and the bolt handle falls on its on but not the way it does without a case. Im kind of guessing with turnimg the die right now and want to understand exactly what would make it drop like the video. Thanks for all your patience and advice guys.

Your extractor may be a tight enough fit to prevent the bolt from falling. I'm not sure I'd worry about it, though. It isn't important that your bolt close by gravity -- you just want your cases to have the correct dimensions.

To set the shoulder back is a trial & error thing. You have to have the Hornady Case Comparator or equivalent. I also on some FL dies have had to grind the bottom off a bit to allow the die to go down on the case far enough to hit the shoulder. No big deal, the bottom of the die does not do anything anyway.

I find cases of various lengths (to the ogive, about half-way up the shoulder), and trim the mouths to make sure I am not bottoming out in the chamber. Experimenting with the different base-to-shoulder-ogive lengths I find the length where I can just start to feel some resistance when closing the bolt, and that tells me what the "on the shoulder" length is for that chamber and bolt. Then I set the shoulders back .002 - .003 from that.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Good point,
Some extractors drag on cases, I have seen this on some Bats what use a sliding plate, and on Defiance with the mini16. On the Bat you need to work the extractor, on the defiance, a couple layers of tape under it to hold it up.

 

[dgeesaman]

@steelholder

If you've been neck sizing only for to many firings, you might have to start over with new cases to really know if you have a good die to chamber match. And then just slip your neck sizer into the trash, and you should be good to go.

Now, now, the neck sizer will remain useful when he wants to produce some "fired cases" for having a custom die made or selected.

David

 

[WIB3]

Alex is 100% spot on with a Bat and a sliding plate. What I do initially with a new barrel is to remove it and carefully insert a cleaning rod down the bore to tap out the cases. Once headspace has been established I write down my number in a dedicated book for that barrel along with the touch point of the particular bullet I intend to shoot. The headspace should never change but your bullet touch will. I have a dedicated die and press for each of my BR guns.