I took the BR stock from savage for the BR 12 you show, and put it on my 12 LRPV in 223. It shoots really nice.
Factory Rifle Accuracy
- Thread starter Frankr
- Start date
With the exception of the Savage BR and F class guns mentioned above, some factory guns can shoot very well but typically are assembled for hunting. Hunting guns are generally acceptable when they can produce 1-1.5" groups. Most of us guys here are not happy with that so we reload and spend endless hours finding that perfect load combination and usually get .5-1" groups. It's usually the exception rather than the rule when they get down to .1s-.5s from the factory. Sure 3-5 shot groups are doable but putting 10 shots into a .1-.5" group is definitely custom barrel territory. I've had many guns from the factory that shot .25s but for 3-5 shots. When I stretched it out to 10 shots, that group opened up and I wasn't really able to puff out my chest quite as far. Thru no fault of mine, those factory barrels just can't hold consistent accuracy beyond that 5-7 shot group. I'm sure most even factory barrels can outshoot me but still nothing close to custom made craftsmanship.
i like their dual port target action. rather than buy a new factory rifle i would buy a used.rifle with the action you want or.just buy an action replace the barrel and stock. you at least want the accutrigger. there are some better ones out there though along with some gunsmiths that know how to bring out the best in a savage.
Speaking from a precision hunting perspective with 40+ years of experience:
The old Rem 700's factory rifles for the most part were good shooters. I have several that shot / shoot well under 1 moa, one in the 1/2 moa range (i.e. Varmint model) with tailored reloads. The old triggers were good, even very good, easily adjustable. But I'm afraid that era has past. The old days; if you bought a Rem 700 or Win 70 you could count on a quality rifle that would shoot very well. I only ever own one Win 70 and like a fool I sold it after reading gun magazine that said a 243 was not adequate for deer even though my experience was to the contrary. Young and foolish.
The Browning's I've owned (A and X bolts) shoot every well after the triggers were redone by a gun smith. My A bolt varmint stalker is a 1/2 moa rifle even with the marginal trigger. Don't think they make that model anymore - not surprising, if it works phase it out! That's what they must be teaching these days in business school! Reverse logic is in vogue.
The Tikka T3's, for the most part, have shot very well for me also, under 1 moa even better with some load development. These are good rifles worth considering.
But the absolute best, out of the box factory rifle I've ever owned is the Weatherby Supervarmint Master, Mark V. This rifle shoots well under 1/2 moa with tailored reloads. The trigger is very good. But it cost $1,500 dollars in 2009 dollars. Again, they don't make it anymore - not surprising - it works great so phase it out. It's my Number One Ghog Rifle.
Bottom line, with careful hand loading most factory rifle can be made to shoot in the 1 moa range or slightly under. If they don't shoot first address the bedding especially ones with the cheap plastic stocks. Also don't expect to shoot well if the trigger has a heavy, inconsistent pull or creep. If an after market trigger is available this something to consider after you address the bedding issue. Often free floating the barrel improves group size, at least that has been my experience.
The old Rem 700's factory rifles for the most part were good shooters. I have several that shot / shoot well under 1 moa, one in the 1/2 moa range (i.e. Varmint model) with tailored reloads. The old triggers were good, even very good, easily adjustable. But I'm afraid that era has past. The old days; if you bought a Rem 700 or Win 70 you could count on a quality rifle that would shoot very well. I only ever own one Win 70 and like a fool I sold it after reading gun magazine that said a 243 was not adequate for deer even though my experience was to the contrary. Young and foolish.
The Browning's I've owned (A and X bolts) shoot every well after the triggers were redone by a gun smith. My A bolt varmint stalker is a 1/2 moa rifle even with the marginal trigger. Don't think they make that model anymore - not surprising, if it works phase it out! That's what they must be teaching these days in business school! Reverse logic is in vogue.
The Tikka T3's, for the most part, have shot very well for me also, under 1 moa even better with some load development. These are good rifles worth considering.
But the absolute best, out of the box factory rifle I've ever owned is the Weatherby Supervarmint Master, Mark V. This rifle shoots well under 1/2 moa with tailored reloads. The trigger is very good. But it cost $1,500 dollars in 2009 dollars. Again, they don't make it anymore - not surprising - it works great so phase it out. It's my Number One Ghog Rifle.
Bottom line, with careful hand loading most factory rifle can be made to shoot in the 1 moa range or slightly under. If they don't shoot first address the bedding especially ones with the cheap plastic stocks. Also don't expect to shoot well if the trigger has a heavy, inconsistent pull or creep. If an after market trigger is available this something to consider after you address the bedding issue. Often free floating the barrel improves group size, at least that has been my experience.
I guess I have been lucky. I haven't had a factory rifle yet I couldn't get to 3/4 MOA or better with handloads...but that also includes floating the barrel and either fixing or replacing the trigger. I typically do this before any shooting so no idea what the true off-the-shelf condition is.
However I've only twice got ones that were below 1/2 MOA, and as a general rule they foul more quickly than an after market barrel -- particularly copper. I have a Sendero which is a .3-.4 gun but could only go 20 shots before going to 2-3 MOA. Clean copper, back to .3-.4. A Tubbs treatment made it a lot better.
The last factory rifle I bought was a .223 Remington, cheapest one I could find, at the Gander closeout. Bought it as a donor to make a 6X45. Stuck handloads for my AR in it and they went .3-.4 consistently...zero work on the gun. I was really shocked but it was repeatable. It felt like a sin to spin that barrel off with a pipe wrench after only 200 rounds....
However I've only twice got ones that were below 1/2 MOA, and as a general rule they foul more quickly than an after market barrel -- particularly copper. I have a Sendero which is a .3-.4 gun but could only go 20 shots before going to 2-3 MOA. Clean copper, back to .3-.4. A Tubbs treatment made it a lot better.
The last factory rifle I bought was a .223 Remington, cheapest one I could find, at the Gander closeout. Bought it as a donor to make a 6X45. Stuck handloads for my AR in it and they went .3-.4 consistently...zero work on the gun. I was really shocked but it was repeatable. It felt like a sin to spin that barrel off with a pipe wrench after only 200 rounds....
are you or the missus gonna do it?
As often as we can, but the poster has seen my wife shoot. She is pretty much on par with me. Range- she twice a year, me every week.
WOW WOW WOW....I said not shooting AGG's or competition. NO competitive shooting..
I said 3 shot group from a factory sporter barrel then let it cool. Even a HB varmint barrel I never shoot more than 5 and let it cool for just play around target shooting..I could care less if the shots walk on a factory barrel after 3 rounds or 5 rounds on a HB varmint. I have had a few that have shot bad but most have shot to .5 moa or under at 100 yards when I did my part and I had a good tuned load.. For many years and many different rifles..But I have many customs. I have had quite a few custom 1/8 moa rifles.. One 6ppc Jim Borden Smithed, one barrel was super sub 1/8 moa.
I am just asking what you have got and what you expect from a factory gun.. Yea I have no reason to shoot 10 and 20 shot groups from a factory rifle...That kind of seem stupid to me.
This was a test on my factory Kimber .270 with a #! light weight sporter barrel, I guy ask me to shoot 5 shot groups and see if it opened up..And it did. But H4831 is not it's most accurate load, It prefers IMR4350 for sheer accuracy. Plus it only had 19 rounds through it...200 Yards group I been playing with recently..But yea I only shoot 3 shot groups..IT IS NOT A BR rifle and I never claim it is.I just dont have more targets in pic's because I just dont keep them other than that one I use as a book marker. Just not important to me but yea it shoots 3 shot groups under .5 moa if I do my part most of the time and most of them have.
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If you don't intend to shoot a group with it then who cares what it groups?
Can you explain? I dont understand what you mean ?
Let me help you out a little. In hunting groups really aren't as important as shooting for score. What both kinds of shooting it requires a load tuned to your rifle.
that's why this is a perfect 1 hole group in a hunters eyes. 1'st shot of the day on a cold clean bore.Somewhere on this forum I've read more than once the more you shoot into 1 target the larger your group will get.
So accuracy means different things to different shooters.
There are formulas used to calculate rough estimates of how much the group will grow in size with each additional shot from a 3 shot group. I've seen Brian Litz use it in one of his books. I think you guys are about to debate the difference between a thorough measurement of the guns ability to shoot precise with 1 or more 5-10 shot groups vs a functionality test of 1 3 shot group. It seems counter intuitive but I think there is a strange relation between 3 shot groups and 5-10 shot groups. I've seen guns (my airguns which I have more experience with) shoot decent groups with 3 shots but soon as I put 10 rounds in it, it would grow much larger even though I could usually do decent 3 shot groups more often then one would imagine if they saw one of my 10 shot groups. Not all 3 shot groups were good, just enough to deceive me on the guns true abilities. Would you say that it's an under half inch 30 yard gun or a 1.85 inch 30 yard gun? I lean towards the ladder but I'm also viewing it different then practical hunting ability.
I think that to answer the spirit of the OPs original question we would need to assume a LOT of things... I've read trustworthy reviews of many guns with detailed shot group information and some expensive out of the box guns would not shoot groups as small as some of the savage fv reviews that I have seen and somewhat trust, of coarse, exceptions... Factory guns have variability so same make model might not all be constant gun to gun. It might seem like common sense but the difference can really be one RPR (or whatever)shooting .4 and another shooting 1 at 100 yards, big difference to me. most 250-900 dollar factory rifles shoot .75-1.5 inches at 100 with a 5 shot group with decent factory ammo imo. Strap a good custom barrel on it and you are almost certain to bring it down to .75 and lower. Shooting from a very stable and proper position that is. As mentioned earlier, for some reason most bolt guns are made for hunting so I think manufacturers are happy with 3 shot 1 inch groups at 100 give or take quarter inch. I don't know.... pure speculation. Open ended questions make me long winded past 10pm. edit: I don't think handloading can overcome some barrel and equipment limitations.
I think that to answer the spirit of the OPs original question we would need to assume a LOT of things... I've read trustworthy reviews of many guns with detailed shot group information and some expensive out of the box guns would not shoot groups as small as some of the savage fv reviews that I have seen and somewhat trust, of coarse, exceptions... Factory guns have variability so same make model might not all be constant gun to gun. It might seem like common sense but the difference can really be one RPR (or whatever)shooting .4 and another shooting 1 at 100 yards, big difference to me. most 250-900 dollar factory rifles shoot .75-1.5 inches at 100 with a 5 shot group with decent factory ammo imo. Strap a good custom barrel on it and you are almost certain to bring it down to .75 and lower. Shooting from a very stable and proper position that is. As mentioned earlier, for some reason most bolt guns are made for hunting so I think manufacturers are happy with 3 shot 1 inch groups at 100 give or take quarter inch. I don't know.... pure speculation. Open ended questions make me long winded past 10pm. edit: I don't think handloading can overcome some barrel and equipment limitations.
well since the beginning of time we have never shot more than a three shot group from a sporter hunting rifle for several reason. the idea that the first shot went where you were aiming or wanted it to hit and the second and third shot was able to follow it up. naturally the barrel was hot and continue shooting it and shots are going to walk. Then firing a hot barrel with large cartridges can waste a barrel quick. I really have never needed the three shot rule in Actual hunting most of the time do to shooting a good bit/experience hunting have never needed more than one shot. I actually have a light weight hunting rifle. That is tuned for three shot groups but a lot of times shoot two and if they are touching at 200 yards I'm done. I have hit steel at 950 yards on the first shot with the rifle and that is quite a feat I feel for a 7lbs scoped rifle.. So once again trying to make a target rifle out of a factory sporter rifle is not what this is about.
A three shot group is always been the standard from those kind of rifles. 5 shot groups from HB varmint barrels has always been the standard.. 10 and 20 shot groups are for competition ONLY..
Plus I have shot a lot of short range BR and I can tell you it is tough to hold it together for five- five shot groups...And I am quite sure it as hard to hold it together for a 10 or 20 shot group.. Real easy to loose a shot or several shots over the course of fire
We tuned 6PPC on three shot groups and then tweeked from there. I had a custom sporter that has shot a few .300 3 shot groups at 200 yards and it has put 5 of them there also. Just dont see the need to heat it up that hot for no reason. 3 went there and most times if you did not muff the shot or condition the other two went there also.
A three shot group is always been the standard from those kind of rifles. 5 shot groups from HB varmint barrels has always been the standard.. 10 and 20 shot groups are for competition ONLY..
Plus I have shot a lot of short range BR and I can tell you it is tough to hold it together for five- five shot groups...And I am quite sure it as hard to hold it together for a 10 or 20 shot group.. Real easy to loose a shot or several shots over the course of fire
We tuned 6PPC on three shot groups and then tweeked from there. I had a custom sporter that has shot a few .300 3 shot groups at 200 yards and it has put 5 of them there also. Just dont see the need to heat it up that hot for no reason. 3 went there and most times if you did not muff the shot or condition the other two went there also.
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Yea I know for sure there are just far to many variables for you to shoot a good three shot group and then shoot two more or five more or ten more you are most likely going to have a bigger group.
I can tell you BR shooting stories. I know I threw the targets out ,start of the 200 yards match first three shots to test wind condition were in one bullet hole. I mean I was in shock..One bullet hole..guy's were like you sure. then went right to my record target and it was not maybe a .400 or so.
One Barrel was poor and I told them best I could tune it was .170 I could not get any more. So they were joking with me, are you shooting it in the calm ? I said no.. So my first three relays I shoot .170, .171, .172 and I am in the lead or I think it was real close then my forth relay I shoot two in a hole, seen the flags pick up slightly but said its been sticking them so I shoot and it cuts with the pick up..Ah..So slight change in flags and I said that not going to matter now and it cut more in the direction of the flags..ah..So I waited and when the flags came back I said yea stick this one in there and get out with a .300 and oops it went out the bottom for a .550 group and that's it I was out of the running.them guys were ribbing me, How do you shoot 3 .170's in a row then shoot a .550...I dont know if I did I would have won the match...maybe 5th or 6th.. I do miss it. but I really just dont have the time or money but it was fun.
I can tell you BR shooting stories. I know I threw the targets out ,start of the 200 yards match first three shots to test wind condition were in one bullet hole. I mean I was in shock..One bullet hole..guy's were like you sure. then went right to my record target and it was not maybe a .400 or so.
One Barrel was poor and I told them best I could tune it was .170 I could not get any more. So they were joking with me, are you shooting it in the calm ? I said no.. So my first three relays I shoot .170, .171, .172 and I am in the lead or I think it was real close then my forth relay I shoot two in a hole, seen the flags pick up slightly but said its been sticking them so I shoot and it cuts with the pick up..Ah..So slight change in flags and I said that not going to matter now and it cut more in the direction of the flags..ah..So I waited and when the flags came back I said yea stick this one in there and get out with a .300 and oops it went out the bottom for a .550 group and that's it I was out of the running.them guys were ribbing me, How do you shoot 3 .170's in a row then shoot a .550...I dont know if I did I would have won the match...maybe 5th or 6th.. I do miss it. but I really just dont have the time or money but it was fun.
Probably shouldn't respond......I shoot cast bullets out of hunting rigs.
Factory barrels are just like any other barrel in that they all behave a touch different. For me,I load/tune for getting the cold bore first shot in the "group",first.Then work on tuning so that the group repeats day in day out.Meaning weather be danged,each day new group at the same target. Next is the load has to function up through the mag,on repeaters.
A few weeks ago,had a very easy job of tuning a first year #16 223 Savage....... for 3 shots.Day after day,same story,first 3 into a ragged hole @100......#4 opens the group up,#5 a little more.Has proven itself in the Ghog killing business.Then yesterday started working up a 2500fps load for my '16,stainless SPS 700,7-08. It "likes" a little barrel heat and can hold together for 5 shot groups...... I could go on for hours about each barrel and rig being just a little different.
With cast,we can manipulate many more factors around the bullets size and construction..... and lube.I will say from a varmint hunting standpoint,get the velocity up and over the hump (2500fps) with a moderately hard alloy,a sharp reasonable meplat,and the terminal performance has to be viewed because in some cases it surpasses ballistic tips.My '06 CDL @2600 creates complete vaporization.
Factory barrels are just like any other barrel in that they all behave a touch different. For me,I load/tune for getting the cold bore first shot in the "group",first.Then work on tuning so that the group repeats day in day out.Meaning weather be danged,each day new group at the same target. Next is the load has to function up through the mag,on repeaters.
A few weeks ago,had a very easy job of tuning a first year #16 223 Savage....... for 3 shots.Day after day,same story,first 3 into a ragged hole @100......#4 opens the group up,#5 a little more.Has proven itself in the Ghog killing business.Then yesterday started working up a 2500fps load for my '16,stainless SPS 700,7-08. It "likes" a little barrel heat and can hold together for 5 shot groups...... I could go on for hours about each barrel and rig being just a little different.
With cast,we can manipulate many more factors around the bullets size and construction..... and lube.I will say from a varmint hunting standpoint,get the velocity up and over the hump (2500fps) with a moderately hard alloy,a sharp reasonable meplat,and the terminal performance has to be viewed because in some cases it surpasses ballistic tips.My '06 CDL @2600 creates complete vaporization.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
I deleted the group pics I posted after all the bbl measuring started in your thread, but it was fun while it lasted.
Jimmy James
Silver $$ Contributor
I used to expect moa accuracy out of a factory bbl. Not anymore but it is always a pleasant surprise when you get one that will do that or better. I purchased a Remy 700 PSS and a 5R in 308 back in Jan this year. Replaced both factory triggers with Jewells and started out shooting Federal Gold Medal Match before load develoment. The PSS will put 5 shots inside an inch at 100yds and the 5R will put 5 inside half an inch. I expected the 5R to shoot better than the PSS and am pleasantly surprised how well both rifles shoot. The stocks and actions were worth what i paid for guns. Bbls that shoot are a bonus.
Would be ideal to have a Ransom Rest for your rifles mounted on some really heavy foundation.
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