Faceing a reloading die

[CatShooter]

Whatever has been done to them, they seem softer than dies.

+1

It takes me 5 to 15 minutes with a piece of oiled silicone carbide "Wet-n-dry" paper, on a glass plate.

Plus you can stop and take measurements as you go.

 

[Cleftwynd]

I have done this and it is easier, and cheaper, than fooling with the die.

You can Cut some shim stock put in the shell holder pick up 2-3 tho most shell holders are real loose, or buy persision[sic] holders from redding?

The "precision" (competition) shell holders from Redding will make cases longer, not shorter (which is what is needed here).

Redding comp shell holders are both longer or shorter, mine have both +/- in increments of .002.

 

[CatShooter]

The "precision" (competition) shell holders from Redding will make cases longer, not shorter (which is what is needed here).

Redding comp shell holders are both longer or shorter, mine have both +/- in increments of .002.

Then your set is very unique and probably the only one in existance.

I just got off the phone with the head of tech support, and he (Chris) said they do NOT make ANY shell holders that are shorter than standard (which is 0.125" to the shelf)... so yours must be collector items at this point.

I'm just sayin'

 

[aj300mag]

Whatever has been done to them, they seem softer than dies.

+1

It takes me 5 to 15 minutes with a piece of oiled silicone carbide "Wet-n-dry" paper, on a glass plate.

Plus you can stop and take measurements as you go.

I tested a RCBS & Redding shell holder with a Rockwell tester. The RCBS is 62Rc, the Redding checks 58Rc. About the same range as dies...

 

[clowdis]

If the die is the problem then fix the problem. A 'smith can take your die and shell holder and measure how much setback you can get with it by using a headspace gauge. Then it's a simple matter of shaving a small amount off the bottom of the die.

But the die might NOT be the problem... the chamber might be short. If you shorten the die, forever after, it makes short cases.

It is easier and cheaper to shorten the case by lapping the shell holder.. and when you get the rifle re-barreled, you keep the shell holder for special needs (or toss it in the trash).

The main purpose of taking the setup to a gunsmith is to get him to measure the die with a headspace gauge. Then you can tell whether the die is correct or not and change it if need be. If you don't know where you are it's hard to determine where you need to go.

 

[CatShooter]

If the die is the problem then fix the problem. A 'smith can take your die and shell holder and measure how much setback you can get with it by using a headspace gauge. Then it's a simple matter of shaving a small amount off the bottom of the die.

But the die might NOT be the problem... the chamber might be short. If you shorten the die, forever after, it makes short cases.

It is easier and cheaper to shorten the case by lapping the shell holder.. and when you get the rifle re-barreled, you keep the shell holder for special needs (or toss it in the trash).

The main purpose of taking the setup to a gunsmith is to get him to measure the die with a headspace gauge. Then you can tell whether the die is correct or not and change it if need be. If you don't know where you are it's hard to determine where you need to go.

98% of gunsmiths don't have the ability to measure exact headspace. To do that would require a very large investment that would not pay for itself.

You would be lucky to find one that had "Go" and "No go" gauges in the five most popular calibres.

 

[Link]

Redding comp shell holders are both longer or shorter, mine have both +/- in increments of .002.
[/quote]

Then your set is very unique and probably the only one in existance.

I just got off the phone with the head of tech support, and he (Chris) said they do NOT make ANY shell holders that are shorter than standard (which is 0.125" to the shelf)... so yours must be collector items at this point.

I'm just sayin'
[/quote]

I had the same conversation with Chris the other day about my 30 br.

They make + not - .

I believe the differences in the +s are the measurement from the face that contacts the die to where the head of the case sits? The standard is .125.

Link

 

[CatShooter]

Redding comp shell holders are both longer or shorter, mine have both +/- in increments of .002.

Then your set is very unique and probably the only one in existance.

I just got off the phone with the head of tech support, and he (Chris) said they do NOT make ANY shell holders that are shorter than standard (which is 0.125" to the shelf)... so yours must be collector items at this point.

I'm just sayin'

I had the same conversation with Chris the other day about my 30 br.

They make + not - .

I believe the differences in the +s are the measurement from the face that contacts the die to where the head of the case sits? The standard is .125.

Link

Your post is not clear - are you saying that they make minus shell holders (makes the case shorter, with less headspace)?

Chris was very clear that they do NOT (and will not) make short (minus) shell holders because of legal liability reasons.

 

[Link]

Sorry for the confusion Cat

I agree with you.

I didn't measure any comp shell holders but I think the way they get less bump and still cam over the press is with a larger gap between the surface that the head of the case sets in the holder compared to the std one. The std on a shell holder is .125.

Did I splain myself better?

thank you Sir.

 

[CatShooter]

Sorry for the confusion Cat

I agree with you.

I didn't measure any comp shell holders but I think the way they get less bump and still cam over the press is with a larger gap between the surface that the head of the case sets in the holder compared to the std one. The std on a shell holder is .125.

Did I splain myself better?

thank you Sir.

Yeah, mo' betterer.

The +2 shellholder is 0.127", the +10 shellholder is 0.135"

 

[s100whunter]

I take it off the die ,I use a co-ax press and dont have a choice

 

[Lapua40X]

Jerry1 - I've trimmed up a shell holder to solve the issue you're faced with. I agree that trimming the die would not be a good idea. What I learned in trimming my shell holder, which is a nightmare trying to true up in my lathe chuck, is that it's easier to use the drill press (or mill, if you have one) to do the job. Just make sure your chuck is perfectly aligned at 90 degrees to the flat surface, lay the shell holder on the flat surface (I like corian or marble) and bring the chuck down for full surface contact (this allows for any minor misalignment that may exist) and tighten on the shell holders small diameter. You will need a one inch chuck ... or larger. Then start at low speed with something like 340 grit, working down one or two grades at a time until you've got the polished surface that you prefer (I finish with 1500 grit).
Then just mark your shell holder to identify it and move forward. EZ ....

 

[gotcha]

Jerry1, The "industry standards" for shell holders are pretty loose. I had a problem similar to yours recently & ended up ordering several new S/H's from a variety of Mfg's. The measurements were all over the place. Interestingly the LEE S/H was closest to the "industry standard" in all dimensions. Which blew me away ;D I ended up using 400 grit, a piece of plexiglass, a little oil & the figure 8 motion. Ended up w/ a perfectly square to the die S/H. Something that can't always be said of run of the mill S/H's. I've often wondered how the out of whack S/H's end up effecting bump & how many people true bolt faces to no avail because of them.

 

[jerry1]

All great answers. Thank you guys!
Jerry1

 

[fguffey]

Jerry1, The "industry standards" for shell holders are pretty loose. I had a problem similar to yours recently & ended up ordering several new S/H's from a variety of Mfg's. The measurements were all over the place. Interestingly the LEE S/H was closest to the "industry standard" in all dimensions. Which blew me away ;D I ended up using 400 grit, a piece of plexiglass, a little oil & the figure 8 motion. Ended up w/ a perfectly square to the die S/H. Something that can't always be said of run of the mill S/H's. I've often wondered how the out of whack S/H's end up effecting bump & how many people true bolt faces to no avail because of them.

I am having trouble getting to the correct headspace on a 6BR die. No matter how I do it there is just no enough set back. Rather than pitch the die has anyone faced off a die about .010 and using shims? Any thoughts on the subject would be helpful. I have never had this problem before.
Thanks,
Jerry1

Yes, for years the die and or shell holder has been ground off, for the same number of years the reloader has not been able to determine the length of the of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. When sizing a case the ability of the case to resist sizing is never a consideration, in the perfect world new cases would be used, after new comes once fired cases, resistance to sizing is progressive, still in the forum world of reloading the instructions go something like “The case must be fired at least 4 times (then necked sized 3 times) before it is fully grown, after fully-grown it is necessary to full length sized the case and start over”, in that statement nothing is said about the case becoming more resistance to sizing.

Resistance to sizing, this can happen to a case that has been fired once, I have fired cases that after being fired once had no memory of its own head stamp.

It has not been necessary to reduce the deck height of the shell holder and or base of the die, a bench rester should have enough skill to form cases. I form cases for short chambers, I form cases for long chambers, I do not grind dies, I do not grind the base of a die, as I said, “IT is not necessary”,

I form cases that are .012” shorter than a minimum length case from the shoulder to the head of the case without grinding anything, I form cases that are longer than a field reject chamber by .002” without Redding Competition shell holders, that is .006” beyond the .010”+ capability of the Redding competition shell.
$45.00 a set? I have the #6 set, I paid $5.00 for the set at a gun show in Mesquite, TX.. Redding competition shell holders are nice but not necessary. Any thing a reloader can accomplish by grinding I can accomplish with the feeler gage, same for the Redding Competition shell holders.

“The "industry standards" for shell holders are pretty loose” How many thousandths in a pretty, and what is loose? That statement has no value, I have a standard for shell holders, my standard for a shell holder deck height is .125”, I have shell holders that go back to the late 50s and early 60s, .125” back then manufactures made shell holder to my standard. Pretty loose? if there was such a thing as pretty loose, there is something called pretty tight. The difference between the tow is measured in thousandths.

Difference in shell holders, I have shell holders that allow me to insert a case that is new and or once fired, the same shell holder will not allow me to insert a case that has had the memory knocked out of it. A very fine builder/shooter/reloader ask me for forming a few hundred wildcat cases based on the belted magnum, he asked me to bring the other #4 type shell holder, seems he had 40 plus Weatherby, Browning and etc., cases that would not fit his shell holder, I dug out a small gasket cutting ball peen hammer, the little hammer is great for encouraging chases with upset heads to fit the shell holder they were designed to fit. The extractor rings were expanded .008” and the case body ahead of the belt was expanded .011”, The cases with the upset case heads would require a bigger hammer to fit my ‘pretty tight ‘shell holder. That feat would not be possible without cutting metal.

favorite shell holder: My favorite shell holder is the RCBS, the deck height is .125” if the deck height is not .125” RCBS will replace it, (think about it) If I had a shell holder that did not have a deck height of .125” I could use it as a competition shell holder.

Loose? Can a shell holder fit and be loose? yes, my RCBS shell holders have a deck height of .125”, BUT! Because they are loose? I can raise the deck height .012” +/- a few by placing a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and bottom of the case head, WHY? would I do that, I an a reloader, I am not the one that has to grind a shell holder and or die to increase the ability of the die, shell holder and press to reduce the length of the case. But, let us say what I do is beyond reloading and bench resting, if I did decide to grind the die and or shell holder my methods would allow me to determine how much grinding was necessary in thousandths.

Adding to the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case, again, I use the feeler gage, I adjust the die off the shell holder with the feeler gage, the feeler gage is a standard, it is a transfer, and it is also verifier, for those that take wild-guestimates in fractional turns of the die, verify the wild guess with the verifying tool, the feeler gage. Or continue through like, grouchy.

F. Guffey

 

[Raythemanroe]

Don't RCBS competition shell holders fit up inside the die so this problem can't happen?

 

[fguffey]

Don't RCBS competition shell holders fit up inside the die so this problem can't happen?

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=RCBS+extended+shell+holder

I have to ask: What press? What dies? what shell holder? How many times has the case been fired? Has the case been fired 5 times and is ready to start a new life by being full length sized?

I have extended shell holders, when seating bullets it is not easy to get the 30/06 seating die down short enough to seat bullets in a 308 W case, so I use an extended shell holder, again, I do not use the sizing die for the set, but! In the old days there was enough adjustment in the seating plug to seat long and or short cases, in the old days the die was stamped 'universal'.

F. Guffey

 

[GSPV]

Mr. Guffey,

Could you explain how you get more shoulder bump using a feeler gauge when the die/shell holder doesn't give enough when the case holder is bottoming out on the bottom of the die?

 

[BoydAllen]

If you put a case in a shell holder, you will see that you can move the case "up and down" because there is vertical clearance. Using a feeler gauge under the case positions it higher in the shell holder so that with the ram in its highest position, touching the bottom of the die, while actually sizing, the case will be inserted farther into the die by an amount equal to the the thickness of the feeler gauge. This is possible because the cases rim is not as thick as the slot that it fits in in the shell holder.

 

[fguffey]

GSPV, forming cases for short chambers, the 30/06 minimum length case is shorter than the go-gage length chamber by .005” ‘in the perfect world’ I form cases that are shorter than the minimum length case by .017”, when compared to the go-gage length chamber the formed cases are .012” shorter than a go-gage length chamber.

To accomplish this I must have a shell holder that I can add to the deck height, adding to the deck height of the shell holder is a matter of adding feeler shims as in thickness gages and or feeler gages, fitting the leafs is a matter of cutting the leafs with a pair of scissors, In the event a case refuses to be sized adding a shim between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case has the same effect as grinding the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die.

Adding shims between the deck of the shell holder and case head shortens the distance between the deck of the shell holder and shoulder of the die. It helps to know when there could be be need. Again, the shell holder deck height is .125” if the case is being sized and the die is adjusted to overcome the case’s ability to resist sizing the case head should protrude from the die .125”. When to know there is a need? I have no problem raising the ram to size and before lowering the ram I remove the shell holder by rotating it to allow for the shell holder to be removed from the ram and case head at the same time, after removing the shell holder, I remove the die with the case from the press then measure the protruding case head from the die, in the perfect world the protruding case head should be .125”, if the protruding case exceeds .125” the case is not being sized to minimum length.

Another ‘easier’ method: When the ram is raised and nothing can be accomplished with additional effort, before lowering the ram measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, if the case is sized and the die was adjusted down to the shell holder with the additional 1/4 to 1/2/ turn there should not be a gap, again, the gap indicates the case is tougher than the press, or a another way of putting it, the case has more resistance to sizing than press, die and lube can overcome. To overcome the resistance I add shims, as opposed to turning the die down beyond 1/2 to as much as 1 turn, I raise the case off the shell holder deck, effort can be wasted when the die hits the shell holder.

Forming short cases does not occupy a lot of my time, there are times I cut a chamber short then test fire. the need to size cases for long chambers is more common. I determine the length of the chamber first, when sizing a adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage. I have one M1917 Eddystone that has a chamber that is .002” longer than a field reject chamber, when forming cases for that chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014”, to form cases for that chamber I use 280 Remington cases.

F. Guffey