Faceing a reloading die

[fguffey]

“Jerry1, The "industry standards" for shell holders are pretty loose” I have my own standards, my deck height is .125” RCBS shell holders? I have 4 different sets and or part of sets, I can raise a case head off the deck of a RCBS shell holder .012”, Lee dies more ‘looser’, some of the Lee shell holders allow as much as .016”, if everything worked as design that would be .021” shorter than a minimum length case.

I use this method for forming cases for short chambers, the ‘bump the shoulder back’ problem is not a problem I have, I find it impossible to bump the shoulder, when by die bumps the shoulder it also bumps the case body and the neck, meaning my die has 100% contact with the case, I find it impossible to isolate the shoulder of the die and the shoulder of the case, if I could I would create another problem, if I was able to bump the shoulder with out sizing the case I would not have case body support, I know, a manufacturer sells bump dies, I called, they confirmed my suspensions, there is no way to bump the shoulder without case body support. They did explain the bushing? I was thinking that would be a do-nut making machine with out the bushing/

Cases that whip my press, never happens when I am using new cases, never happens when I am using once fired cases, there is nothing about me that demands I fire cases until they become become more resistance to sizing than one of my presses can not overcome.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

If you put a case in a shell holder, you will see that you can move the case "up and down" because there is vertical clearance. Using a feeler gauge under the case positions it higher in the shell holder so that with the ram in its highest position, touching the bottom of the die, while actually sizing, the case will be inserted farther into the die by an amount equal to the the thickness of the feeler gauge. This is possible because the cases rim is not as thick as the slot that it fits in in the shell holder.

Shell holder? The quote was “The "industry standards" for shell holders are pretty loose” Boyd Allen says “shell holder” Which shell holder?

I have shell holders that will not allow a reloader to raise the case head off the deck of the shell holder because there is not enough room for the feeler gage. Even then “The "industry standards" for shell holders are pretty loose”, the loose does not apply. What would you do with a shell holder that was that tight? My favorite shell holder is the RCBS shell holder because they are versatile, my tight shell holders are not versatile, but back in the days I fired a case and it got hammered, etc..

F. Guffey

 

[GSPV]

With respect, I'm not about to take time to worry with feeler gauge pieces under my cases/on top of my shell holder when I can use a faced-down shell holder. Too much like work.

 

[bigedp51]

Mr. Guffey,

Could you explain how you get more shoulder bump using a feeler gauge when the die/shell holder doesn't give enough when the case holder is bottoming out on the bottom of the die?

We live in a plus and minus world, I have a Lee .223 die that bumps the shoulder back .005 more than a RCBS .223 die. If you can't bump the shoulder back far enough the simplest thing to do is lap the top of the shell holder.

The "tall" shell holder "problem" happens all the time if you visit SavageShooters.com and read about people using a cartridge case as a headspace gauge to set the headspace on their new barrel. These posts always start "Help my resized cases won't fit in my chamber".

Inserting a feeler gauge between the case and the shell holder with cases that have damaged extractor groove can cause freedom of movement and alignment problems with the shell holder.

 

[GSPV]

OH, I'm pretty clear on how *I* handle the "not enough bump" issue. I just wanted to know how Mr. Guffey does it.

That method just isn't going to work for me. I do way, *way* too many cases to worry with pieces of feeler gauges on top of my shell holder.

 

[bigedp51]

OH, I'm pretty clear on how *I* handle the "not enough bump" issue. I just wanted to know how Mr. Guffey does it.

That method just isn't going to work for me. I do way, *way* too many cases to worry with pieces of feeler gauges on top of my shell holder.

You will learn to "NEVER" ask fguffey any questions and especially headspace and magic feeler gauge questions. Shoving feeler gauges in the shell holder and restricting and binding case movement isn't the answer. Just look at the chewed up rims on fired cases shot in a M1, M14 or AR15 and you will see what I mean.

 

[GSPV]

I try to always be open to a better way than removing some of the top of the shell holder or the bottom of the die.

I didn't think that there was and, for my situation, there still isn't .

 

[BoydAllen]

The down side of the feeler gauge is that you have to deal with it every time you size a case, and deprime as a separate step. On the other hand, it allows you to figure out how much to take off of a shell holder, which can be an advantage if you are cutting it down with a machine, rather than by hand with abrasives.

 

[fguffey]

Boyd Allen, you are correct, I measure from the top of the shell holder down to the holder deck and from the base of the die to the shoulder of the die, when it comes to grinding I have an inline, angle and butt grinder, means nothing to a reloader but outside of reloading it is used to make pilots, tapered gages and gages that are flat on one end and tapered on the other.

“The down side of the feeler gauge is that you have to deal with it every time you size a case, and deprime as a separate step”

I do not have ‘bump the shoulder back issues’ I can determine the reason other reloaders having the problem. If the case is not being sized in the die a reloader should not be confused by the presses' failure to size the case. The case can have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome, again, a reloader can measure the gap between the shell holder and die to determine the amount of the case that did not get stuffed into the die. The standard answer for cases that refuse to be sized is “You need a small base die”, there are not many small base dies I do not have, I have never found a need for one of them. To determine If I thought I needed a small base die I could use the feeler gage to reduce the deck height of the shell holder.

I have no clue what Ed is referring to when he claims there is danger and risk to the rim, the top of the rim does not touch anything when the case sits on the deck of the shell holder, raising the deck height does not cause contact unless a shim is used that is greater than the free space, and I said on my RCBS shell holder I can install a .012” feeler gage. The

“The down side of the feeler gauge is that you have to deal with it every time you size a case, and deprime as a separate step”

I have metal punches, then there is the ‘every time’, again, I do most of my sizing with the die off the shell holder, I use the feeler gage rather than wild guesses. I make the adjustment then secure the die to the press with the lock ring, and I adjust my dies overtime, I do not leave them in the press.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

OH, I'm pretty clear on how *I* handle the "not enough bump" issue. I just wanted to know how Mr. Guffey does it.

That method just isn't going to work for me. I do way, *way* too many cases to worry with pieces of feeler gauges on top of my shell holder.

You will learn to "NEVER" ask fguffey any questions and especially headspace and magic feeler gauge questions. Shoving feeler gauges in the shell holder and restricting and binding case movement isn't the answer. Just look at the chewed up rims on fired cases shot in a M1, M14 or AR15 and you will see what I mean.

Ed, GSPV did not know, he simply ask a question, he did not know that asking me a question would set you off. Not a problem for me, I have a lot of experience with ALABAMA LEG DOGS.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

Ed, GSPV did not know, he simply ask a question, he did not know that asking me a question would set you off. Not a problem for me, I have a lot of experience with ALABAMA LEG DOGS.

F. Guffey

I feel sorry for many people looking for information on the internet, you have misquoted Hatcher's Notebook and other material and act like you invented the word headspace. Anyone who has read any of your War and Peace length postings will understand what I'm saying.

Again I feel sorry for many people looking for information on the internet, at Castboolits there is someone I have known by many different screen names handing out information. The problem is this person doesn't cast bullets or even have a reloading press.

Meaning there are more than a few people posting on the internet who are a few bricks shy of a full load. And if anyone wants to Google "fguffey" they will see what I mean.

I'm not concerned with "ALABAMA LEG DOGS" but I am concerned with information going to the dogs.

I don't stick feeler gauges in shell holders or put headspace gauges inside reloading dies or write "War and Peace" length posting when lapping the shell holder is the simplest thing to correct the OP problem.

 

[GSPV]

I understand the normal use of feeler gauges in adjusting a die. I *have* been doing this for 4 decades .

I use a variant of the idea almost exclusively...Skip Otto die shims and seater stem shims. My whole loading process is built around them.

But they ain't a gonna work for me when the holder is bottoming out and I still don't have any bump. That's what my shaved shell holders are for.

BTW, Roll Tide.

 

[bigedp51]

I understand the normal use of feeler gauges in adjusting a die. I *have* been doing this for 4 decades .

I use a variant of the idea almost exclusively...Skip Otto die shims and seater stem shims. My whole loading process is built around them.

But they ain't a gonna work for me when the holder is bottoming out and I still don't have any bump. That's what my shaved shell holders are for.

BTW, Roll Tide.

I have Skips shims you put under the lock rings and Redding Competition Shell holders. These only move the die upward and away from the shell holder. I have had to lap a shell holder only once due to "tight" headspace and that was on a Czechoslovakian made Mauser .270 that had a overly tight chamber, and I was told to do this by RCBS.

And a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge will give you more information than a feeler gauge when you measure your fired and resized cases.

 

[BoydAllen]

GSPV,
Not that I do much of this, but they will. The feeler gauge goes directly under the case head as it sits in the shell holder, contacting the head and the shell holder. Doing this raises the case by the thickness of the feeler gauge. Assuming that there is some clearance between the case rim and the top of the slot in the shell holder that it fits in, a case can be raised enough to give some bump with a setup that would not without the gauge. I cannot see myself doing this for regular reloading, but where it could have a place is to figure out how much I need to take off of the top of a shell holder. If a .005 feeler gauge gets the job done, then taking that much or a couple more, in case cases work harden, should do the trick.

 

[GSPV]

Oh, believe me, I well understand what folks are saying. It isn't difficult. Feeler gauges are a great measuring/setting tool. They just aren't a production method.

I have a couple of custom chambers that need a shaved case holder. Been doing it for years.

My next project is to create a shell holder a half thou taller or shorter to use with my Skip shims so that I can control bump in half thou increments rather than one thou increments as I do today.