F TR..308 Win 4 groove vs. 5R

[rmist]

For shooting F TR with a 308 Win...what would be better for the 185-200 grain bullets a 4 groove or a 5R in 10 twist? What's the pros and cons for each ? I'm asking since in the market for another barrel.

Thanks again

 

[Ned Ludd]

Don't think it matters. All my barrels are Bartlein 5R, but there are loads of folks shooting outstanding scores with barrels of various land/groove configurations. A quality barrel from a reputable manufacturer such as Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, etc., will do everything you need, regardless of the land/groove configuration. In theory, the 5R barrels are supposed to clean a little more easily and because the lands do not oppose one another, there is supposed to be less of an issue with potentially "pinching" the bullet as it traverses the bore. I have no strong opinion about the relative merit of either of these claims.

 

[rmist]

Thanks Greg
Would one be faster with fps over the other. I have a 5R now that can't get above 2700 fps with 185's using a lot of powder. Best load is 44.4 gr Varget , 450 primer, 2680 av fps.

 

[FrankG]

Go check out this thread......I just answered a lot of questions like this.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/groove-discussion.3903353/

 

[rmist]

Thank you Frank for information !! Glad to see honest answers from a top barrel maker.

 

[Elwood]

I'm using a Bartlein 4 groove barrel in my .308 F-TR rifle and it's a bitch to clean, thankfully it's a laser beam to shoot. My friend who's the current GB National F-TR champion uses exactly the same load, including the same batch of powder and the barrel cut with the same reamer, the only difference is his barrel is a 5R. His cleans up nice and easy.
Perhaps I have just got a difficult to maintain barrel, but it certainly wouldn't stop me from having another one.

 

[FrankG]

I'm using a Bartlein 4 groove barrel in my .308 F-TR rifle and it's a bitch to clean, thankfully it's a laser beam to shoot. My friend who's the current GB National F-TR champion uses exactly the same load, including the same batch of powder and the barrel cut with the same reamer, the only difference is his barrel is a 5R. His cleans up nice and easy.
Perhaps I have just got a difficult to maintain barrel, but it certainly wouldn't stop me from having another one.

I clean my 4 groove barrels and 5R barrels the same way and I don't see a difference in how they clean. Some say the 5R clean easier. I say your cleaning two different things. Copper from the bullet and powder fouling. One I don't see a difference in copper fouling for the most part. From a carbon fouling stand point I will say maybe and this is because the patch isn't trying to get down in that 90 degree corner on conventional style rifling like in a normal 4 groove, 3 groove, 2 groove, 5 groove or 6 groove barrel. The 5R with the angles on the sides of the lands makes this a little easier but again the way I clean my barrels I don't see a difference. I just put a 4 groove barrel in 6 Dasher on my 40x. Only has 65 rounds on it. It cleans just fine. I've shot 105 Lapua's, Berger Hybrids and Hornady BTHP all with no issues.

You don't say how many rounds are on each barrel? Shooting the same bullets from the same lot? How did each barrel start out shooting/cleaning? What's the load/pressure from each load being shot thru each barrel? Pressure/heat/velocity can have an effect as well in terms of fouling.

Bullets will vary from lot to lot and can effect copper fouling and how they clean etc...another variable to contend with.

Just because the same reamer cut both barrels doesn't mean you got the same finish out of the chamber/area of the throat. If the reamer lefter a rougher finish in the throat of your barrel that can lead to more fouling as well and will make it harder to clean but that won't necessarily be the barrels fault. What did/does the throat look like when it was new? What does it look like now? How many rounds on the barrel?

As the barrel wears it will get rougher in the throat and fouling can and will increase. No way around it.

Also I do tell shooters some copper/fouling is normal in the barrel. As long as it's not increasing and causing a loss in accuracy then don't sweat it so much.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Elwood]

Hi Frank, and thank you for your response, your insight is greatly appreciated.

I should have said my cleaning problem was only with the removal of carbon and powder fouling. I don't like using a bronze unless I really have too and with this one a bronze certainly makes it quicker to clean. I have tried both Boretech Carbon remover and the Wipeout carbon remover, both of which I rate highly.
Both barrels are running on virtually identical elevations so I assume velocities and pressures are close. My barrel is just over 1000 rounds and my friends I believe about 500 more.
I have cleaned many of your 5R 1-9 .284 barrels and marvel at how they clean up especially with the lack of copper fouling until later on in their life.

Like I said this barrel is so accurate that I really don't have a problem with the extra maintenance.

 

[FrankG]

Hey Elwood! Thanks for the extra information. Didn't take anything in a bad way at all so please don't think that. I was looking for more information to try and help/figure out what was/is going on.

I don't use brushes either.

Try some Remington 40x bore cleaner. After cleaning the barrel to get the copper out and you dry patch the bore get a patch soaked with the 40x cleaner and stroke the barrel 10x with that one patch and you can short stroke the throat area especially later on in the barrel life. I feel the 40x cleaner works better on the carbon fouling and will also remove residual traces of copper as well but the 40x cleaner isn't as aggressive as a paste cleaner. Don't recommend paste cleaners for the most part at all.

Rem. 40x cleaner years ago use to be called Gold Medallion.

Later, Frank

 

[rpierce]

+1 on rem 40x. works great and isn't very aggressive.

 

[mauser284]

Not going to matter. Which ever peaks your interest or you get a better deal on etc.... Some barrel makers have different prices for different styles of rifling usually with 5R being the most expensive because it is trendy. You always pay more for what ever is popular and considered "the best". I have 12 barrels sitting around though so it has been a while since I priced them. Definitely pre-Covid 19!

I have rifles that have 5R barrels and it was not because I was seeking out 5R just got a deal or the rifle came with it. I have not seen any real difference definitely not anything to write home to mom about, wait extra for or pay more for!

Start with a quality barrel and a fantastic gun smith and the rest is up to your reloading and your wind reading skills!

I like premium barrels and great deals so I often buy what I can get a great deal on. I seldom get exactly what I want but I always get quality and a great price. I will say this though for my F guns I only use cut rifled barrels and I like non-SS. To date I have only used Brux on my F guns. But I am open to other brands. I have been happy to date and have not had any reason to change.

Bartlein is one of the few brands I have not used yet. Since I am sitting on barrels I like to use what I have before I buy more. Does not always work out like that though! LOL That darn N+1 is always stalking us down!

If I am on the ground or standing up with a rifle shooting off hand I tend to win more with cut rifled barrels. When I am shooting from a rest I tend to do best with button rifled barrels. Hunting rifles I do not care. The above makes no sense and I am sure it is likely placebo! LOL

What have you had good luck with so far? Why are you changing? What do you want to do with this barrel that the last one did not do? Might help you decide on what you want. Even an imagined advantage can produce real effects.

The biggest pain in the rear with any new barrel is load development!!!

 

[XTR]

Five yr old thread.

 

[XTR]

I will say that the information in this thread and the other referenced by Frank is worth reading for a lot of people. It's kind of rare that you get information in this game that is actually supported by enough data to be statistically valid.

 

[paulT]

Hey Elwood! Thanks for the extra information. Didn't take anything in a bad way at all so please don't think that. I was looking for more information to try and help/figure out what was/is going on.

I don't use brushes either.

Try some Remington 40x bore cleaner. After cleaning the barrel to get the copper out and you dry patch the bore get a patch soaked with the 40x cleaner and stroke the barrel 10x with that one patch and you can short stroke the throat area especially later on in the barrel life. I feel the 40x cleaner works better on the carbon fouling and will also remove residual traces of copper as well but the 40x cleaner isn't as aggressive as a paste cleaner. Don't recommend paste cleaners for the most part at all.

Rem. 40x cleaner years ago use to be called Gold Medallion.

Later, Frank

Hi Frank shooting your 5R Barrels for good few years and find they clean up easy enough for both carbon and copper i tend to clean with low round count usualy @50-70 rounds done
I notice you doint use Bronze or nylon brushes when cleaning your barrels may i ask your reasoning why Thanks.

 

[mauser284]

LOL.......Did not notice! LOL Sometimes I do not care but that was not this time! LOL

 

[wkdickinson]

I've written this in a number of other threads, but here again. Boots Obermeyer told me years ago (I have had a number of his barrels) to use "RemClean", now 40X. A couple dry patches to get rid of the loose stuff, then a patch saturated with 40X, wrapped around worn out brush, stroked 10 times. Then 3-4 clean patches and you are done.

I personally like the 5R style of rifling. Intellectually it makes sense to me that you don't have 90 deg. angles that you have to try to clean. But I really have only shot 5R barrels with the exception of a Krieger 1:7.7 on an AR (which shoots and cleans very well). My last barrel was a Bartlien 1:8" 5R in a 6.5 Creed. Shoots great and cleans easy.

 

[D-4297]

Ford - Chevy .....Ford - Chevy .....Ford - Chevy .......Neither ! M-O-P-A-R ! That's about the total relevance of this debate / thread . I've shot both , have both , and never really saw much difference between them . Other than the 5r cleans a bit easier .

 

[mauser284]

Ford - Chevy .....Ford - Chevy .....Ford - Chevy .......Neither ! M-O-P-A-R ! That's about the total relevance of this debate / thread . I've shot both , have both , and never really saw much difference between them . Other than the 5r cleans a bit easier .

Toyota I6, I4 or V8 never look back! LOL

 

[Hankpac]

Have been told by several builders including one that will only use a 4 groove barrel for builds that the 4 groove makes for a more accurate rifle.

 

[TylerFromMS]

Have been told by several builders including one that will only use a 4 groove barrel for builds that the 4 groove makes for a more accurate rifle.

They just don’t want to indicate it.