F-T/R with a spotting scope?

[eric32]

I have a dilemma that i have contemplated for a bit, i am trying to figure the best course of action


1. I keep my 20x Super sniper scope and add the use of a spotting scope on the line so i can only focus on the mirage with the spotting scope as i shoot my string. Spend the extra cash i have on reloading supplies once everything stops getting crazy.

2. Spend the cash to get a sIII 10-50X60 fine crosshair, and use that as a "spotting scope". And not use the spotting scope on the line or i can use it but no extra cash to stock up on reloading supplies

What do i do?

 

[mao0720]

Id go with the sightron 10-50. I have a SS 20x on one of my other rifles and it is a great scope, but really low powered for FT/R. Do yourself the favor and get the higher mag scope.

 

[eric32]

What if i tried to bring the mirage that was somewhere around the 500-600 yard mark into focus while i shoot. would that be a good idea? and what would that do to the target at 1k?

 

[lal357]

i agree that the spotting scope doesnt have to be a high dollar scope i used a walmart special for 3 years and picked up a sightron 10x50x60 scope for the rifle . i would use the rifle for whats happening down at the target and set up the spotting scope mid range to see what is going on at the 300(if shooting 600) and @ 500-600 for the 1000yard matches.last year the wife bought me a konus 20x60x100 so i gave the other away.

 

[DBailey]

I realize that I'm setting myself up, but here we go.

If the majority of your F-Class shooting is long range a higher power rifle scope with a finer reticle will benefit you the most.
Allways focus the paralax adjustment of your rifle scope on the target the absolute best you can and leave it set there for the entire string.

When you recover from the rifle scope purchase a spotting scope should be next. You do not have to get the very best on the market, the 20-60x80 Konus or anything like it will get the job done.
Place the spotting scope so you can use it without getting out of position. Set the power between 20 and 30. Aim it so that you can see your target and as many of your competitors targets as possible. Focus the spotting scope on the targets then roll the focus back to you a couple of hundred yards.

Wind all the way up and down the range has an effect on the bullet, but wind down range has a greater effect on POI per MPH due to the bullets lower velocity.

Nothing is set in stone, but these tips work the greatest majority of the time.

 

[DBailey]

As I said, I knew that I was setting myself up.

I'm not going to fight the math, but I do have a question or two.
Do you watch the trace from other shooters when you are scoring? If you have on windy days then you've seen it make big hooks on the way to the target. Have you ever seen that hook happen over the first two hundred yards, or is it always down range?
I've seen it thousands of times, but never close to the shooter.

 

[eric32]

So if i had a spotting scope where i could look thru and not disturb my head position. I would focus on on the scope the mirage at the target and spotting scope at 300-500 yard mark.

am i correct in saying this?

but what if i dont have a spotting scope, would it be wise to just focus at the target? OR back off just a little and focus on the 600 yard mark?

 

[mao0720]

In response to the trace comment as well. The reason that you do not see large changes in horizontal trajectory "hooks" up close is due to the velocity of the projectile at the closer ranges. The bullet is traveling twice (approx.) the distance in the same amount of time (as in 200yds in 1 ms at close range vs 100yds in 1 ms at longer range) therefor the diflection is not as noticeable, visually. further downrange when the projectile has slowed, the horizontal diflection is much more appearant, visually. Just because you cant see it up close, doesnt mean its not happening.

 

[eric32]

i have a spotting scope, but it's not an angled eye piece and i don't have a stand so i will basically have to buy a new one with an angled eye piece and a stand to get it into position.

i have a 20X SS scope with mil-quad reticle its about .030 thick so i could us the cash to buy a spotting scope and stand.

OR

10-50X60 S3 WITH A FINE CROSS HAIR

the reason i am trying to figure this all out i shoot at Blakely,GA which is known to have a whole lot of wind. and i wuld like to improve my 180 avg scores


****Well after some more reading i am going to try the spotting scope/20X sniper scope combo and and focus at the 300-600 yards line and watch for the mirage****

 

[Lbart]

Eric32,
Read David Bailey's posts. The man is the current F-Class Open National Champion.

If your scores are in the 180/200 range you have more problems than a spotting scope will cure. Get the best rifle scope you can and work on your flag watching and mirage doping using that scope until you can get a spotting scope also. Work on your loads and shot breaking abilities. Can you shoot sub-half minute angle test groups on a regular basis? Learn to follow the spotter, the wind and mirage as they change and your scores will go up.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

+1 on what Larry said.

While in theory everything works as calculated, the real-life experience of true champions has far greater value.

 

[eric32]

Eric32,
Read David Bailey's posts. The man is the current F-Class Open National Champion.

If your scores are in the 180/200 range you have more problems than a spotting scope will cure. Get the best rifle scope you can and work on your flag watching and mirage doping using that scope until you can get a spotting scope also. Work on your loads and shot breaking abilities. Can you shoot sub-half minute angle test groups on a regular basis? Learn to follow the spotter, the wind and mirage as they change and your scores will go up.

i thought for a 20 shot string a 180 was a decent start point, i have since then gotten a chrono and figure out i need to change primer with IMR powder from BR2 to Win LR that helped a ES of 50FPS go down to 20FPS. Yes i can shot half MOA groups on a regular basis. but i think with the cheap spotting scope i do have now i and with a Sightron S3 8-32X56 will help along with the 1/8 clicks and Fine cross hairs . but its all a work in progress.

I realize that I'm setting myself up, but here we go.

If the majority of your F-Class shooting is long range a higher power rifle scope with a finer reticle will benefit you the most.
Allways focus the paralax adjustment of your rifle scope on the target the absolute best you can and leave it set there for the entire string.

When you recover from the rifle scope purchase a spotting scope should be next. You do not have to get the very best on the market, the 20-60x80 Konus or anything like it will get the job done.
Place the spotting scope so you can use it without getting out of position. Set the power between 20 and 30. Aim it so that you can see your target and as many of your competitors targets as possible. Focus the spotting scope on the targets then roll the focus back to you a couple of hundred yards.

Wind all the way up and down the range has an effect on the bullet, but wind down range has a greater effect on POI per MPH due to the bullets lower velocity.

Nothing is set in stone, but these tips work the greatest majority of the time.

thanks a whole lot for all the advice i will take it and apply it to what i am doing now thanks a lot. This is why this forum is the best on the internet.

 

[Cat MD]

Well said David Bailey! The voice of experience speaks volumes. What you shared sould be experimented with on the range not contradicted by text books.
All I am going to ad is this the spotting scope is for shooting 1st - scoring 2nd. The scope down with the shooter is an asset, I personally dont use mine every shot but when I need to figure things out when I get in a mess its handy. Herb

 

[DBailey]

Congratulations again Herb on winning the Texas State F-T/R Championship!

I don't use my spotting scope every shot either, but when it's needed it's a lifesaver.

Greg, there was absolutely no offense taken to your comments.

I don't fight the math because I'm aware that it seems to contradict what actually happens.
Maybe it's because the increases that take place as the bullet goes down range are not being taken into account.
Such as, the increasing rate per foot of velocity loss as the bullet goes down range. The increasing rate per foot of effective BC loss due to the lost velocity. The increasing rate per foot of time the wind has to effect the bullet.

All I can tell you is, if you miss a 2 mph change at the line you have to shoot a lot tighter than I can to see it on target. But if you miss a 2 mph change down range you're very lucky if you didn't loose at least one point.

 

[Steve Blair]

Well, I hope this will not be misinterpreted as a rebuke of David, who I respect as a shooter. [br]
The highest velocity loss rate occurs at the muzzle, when the bullet is traveling fastest. This is a simple effect of the drag function in which drag coefficient and fluid density are linear but velocity is exponential. The velocity loss rate diminishes with distance. [br]
Assuming a steady state, 90° crosswind (that doesn't exist), the bullet's instantaneous angular deflection is relatively constant throughout flight. The wind has more time to act upon the bullet as it slows, over any given distance. But, the bullet is also closer to the target when that occurs and the instantaneous angular deflection translates to less displacement on the target. The net effect of both is that target displacement is approximately constant throughout flight. [br]
Exterior ballistics is a very well explored research area. If you think that small arms folks are obsessive about ballistics, it's because you have never spoken to artillery people. The ballistic calculators that we take for granted today are the end result of hundreds of years of research. They are amazingly accurate. While subjective opinion and experience are sometimes important, this is a research area where little is left to doubt. [br]
Our problem is that the situation is much more complex than any calculator can anticipate. Wind is never steady state throughout bullet flight and is rarely 90°. Ranges have features that produce greater or lesser wind velocity at different distances, near laminar flow at some points and turbulent flow at others. If the wind was from your right and 500-1000 yards on the range had a thick stand of tall trees on that side, I certainly would not focus my scope within that range, it would be focused somewhere within 0-500. The opposite is also true. Take all range factors into account when making your wind estimates. If the range is relatively open and the wind generally constant across the distance (to the extent that we can determine in a match), I focus my spotting scope in the 30-50% distance. If there is some range feature that disrupts or enhances wind flow, you should try to estimate the effect and possibly focus on it. [br]
Meteorologists cannot predict wind from day to day on a macro level. It is somewhat unreasonable to expect that a shooter can make a momentary judgement on a micro level and be correct every time. There is no substitute for experiencing as much variety as possible and learning to integrate the effects into wind assessments. You still won't be right every time. But, like David did at Raton, matches are usually won by making the fewest mistakes.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Cat MD is Herb? Who knew?

Well, that and his description.

Yes, congratulations to you Herb, you did very well under very difficult conditions. I hope you come down to Bayou again before Raton. You are going to Raton, are you not?

 

[memilanuk]

I'd agree with the better rifle scope first, then a better spotting scope. I will disagree and say that a better spotting scope can be worth its weight in gold... and a cheapie is about dang near worthless. The more expensive ones have features like wide angle (WA) and long eye relieve (LER) lenses, which make a huge difference in usability from position where you can't (or shouldn't) be continuously fiddling with them. If you can spring it, fluorite coated (aka 'ED' or the new buzz term, 'HD') lenses are amazing - they make details of the mirage visible that you never imagined (in your worst nightmares ). Unfortunately, they cost accordingly... which is why I *don't* have a scope w/ those yet. Kowa scopes tend to be the 'standard' in HP rifle, kind of like Nightforce rifle scopes - a long while back they combined a high level of performance with a reasonable price point. Other products/lines may have narrowed that gap over time, but you still see these the most on the ready line for a reason. Konus is making some inroads in the spotting scope dept, kind of like Sightron. Decent performance, maybe a few less of the nicer features, and a good bit cheaper.... and they'll get you a long ways down the road.

 

[eric32]

I want to thank everyone that replied for the wealth of knowledge and advice, i will be starting with a better scope and i will be trying to barrow a spotting scope for a match just to see how it works out for me.

i am thinking of a 8-32 S3 with FCH and 1/8min clicks, any one think i should just go with the 10-50 and call it a day.

my gut says go with the 10-50 but it wont be in stock in time for me to shoot the regional match in the beginning of april

 

[KT]

Eric,
You can never have enough magnification and if the mirage is really bad you can always turn it down. With that said, if I were to pick between the two sightrons I would go with the 10x50x60.

I'm not quite sure what your price point is, but there are a lot of used Nightforce 12x42x56 BR scopes in the for sale forum for a pretty good price.
(due to the new Nightforce Competition being released).

This is the route I would go. Nightforce makes a great product and they stand by them.

Either one of these two company's scope will get the job done.

KT

 

[eric32]

KT

i was thinking the same thing, but if i could find one for 1k that would be awesome but i can wait for a S3 for 850$ new