F-Open: 300 WM?

[johnnyi]

I got excited about creedmoor but it’s “add to cart” for back order only. Small print says out of stock. I did that for saum brass a pretty long time back, and still waiting.

WM is not in stock everywhere that sells it, either, in fairness. But bullet central had Lapua and graf had Peterson L. I was honestly surprised Lapua picked up the 300 WM case. I can imagine that Lapua + 300 PRC is a combo that will be like waiting for Christmas, always.

Oops. Sorry they tricked me

 

[Wingnut00]

Mrk248 mod1 chamber and shoot 230 hybrids. But in your discipline you can’t use a muzzle brake correct? If not it will thump your ass pretty fair.

 

[rgrx1276]

Don't know about F class, but back in the day I won a couple state LR championships shooting a 300 WM. Very easy to get an accurate load, not to mention I had all the once fired brass I could use courtesy of the USAMU.. Only problem was, over 2-3 days worth of matches it started to wear on me a bit... F Class- I would go for it.

 

[davidjoe]

Mrk248 mod1 chamber and shoot 230 hybrids. But in your discipline you can’t use a muzzle brake correct? If not it will thump your ass pretty fair.

Right. No muzzle brakes, but up to 10.0 kg of rifle weight. It’s been a long time since the short mags came out. I believe that a shorter action and more efficient use of a given weight of powder charge was the main benefit, but I don’t recall, and wonder, if they were claimed to be potentially more accurate for any reason, such as a smaller spread in pressure differences, a longer neck where the throat wears, or last longer in terms of round count, and such.

 

[darkangel_r2]

Right. No muzzle brakes, but up to 10.0 kg of rifle weight. It’s been a long time since the short mags came out. I believe that a shorter action and more efficient use of a given weight of powder charge was the main benefit, but I don’t recall, and wonder, if they were claimed to be potentially more accurate for any reason, such as a smaller spread in pressure differences, a longer neck where the throat wears, or last longer in terms of round count, and such.

Can you swap bolt faces?

If you want to duplicate your performance of the 7 saum you can do 280AI.

Same bullets and powder and damn near identical charges and velocity to 7 saum. Probably a little less brass life but you can form it easily from some tough 30-06 brass which is easier to find and much cheaper. Single feeding from a long action wouldn't be a problem either.

 

[drop_point]

You know, I've been listening to many podcasts from Erik Cortina where he interviews champions that were tempted by the magnums, but always abandon them. I think in police work, they may call that a clue. LOL

Since its a backup rifle, why not use the same cartridge you already use? Perhaps just buy enough components at one time to wear that barrel out rather than always being at the mercy of suppliers?

 

[davidjoe]

I really like that interview series of Erik’s. They don’t always abandon them though, watch the V2 final match. IMO the very top finishers have wind reading skills that are so refined and competent that an extremely accurate rifle, within the parameters of reasonable BC, is all they need. They would shoot worse with a more finicky rifle, recoil, or chasing the peaks of barrel life with magnums. They would beat a good portion of the Open field with a .308.

The interviewees resolute on .284’s, and yes there are some including Erik, are being 100% honest about their personal experience. However, there is truly such a thing as magnum 10’s - 9’s with other-than-magnums for that person. A-/B+ wind readers shoot a lot more of these magnum 10’s, than points they will drop just because it’s a magnum. The best wind readers don’t miss “magnum 10’s” very often, with their standard cartridges, though, - it’s just a plain old “10” near the X for them, and so a magnum upside for them is smaller or nonexistent. Erik isn’t going to interview B+ wind readers though, the magnum 10 isn’t appreciated much, maybe even generally belittled, and A+ wind readers don’t gain anything encouraging 10 magnums on each of 4 relays, 7 of which shoot very small and 3 of which are steered by straight A callers, anymore than Phil Helmuth gains encouraging the table to “gamble” such that 4 guys make bad calls, and one busts him.

I can say this with certainty, and it won’t sound good, but on the same relay, with the exact same .284 cartridge and bullet as the top shooters in the country, if you are a rung or two below that consistently year after year, you stand zero chance of beating them. The wind will be the same, and you have no arguable, conceivable advantage, while being a consistent lesser caller. If we are going say .284’s are superior because they often win or because champions choose to shoot them, then in fairness to the counter view we have to examine how many of them enter and where they all pan out, relative to the whole field, and whether they win by even the expected ratio. Of course there is nothing wrong with enjoying trying to win but that not happening, because these are shooting matches after all and therefore fun, just being realistic.

I keep in mind that shooting in greater wind toughens up skills. See Australia’s National and F/TR’s standout skills. Shooting TR is functionally the same as shooting on a range in Open with more wind, or the same wind but at a longer distance. Here though, our Open guys will be hard pressed to practice in wind that all the usual competitors don’t also see.

So, can we all eventually have equal wind skills if we just work hard enough and load well enough, so that we have equal chances to win with .284’s. I say no. That has never been true in any endeavor, that hard work alone can overcome talent+work. Sometimes it can’t even overcome just talent, with no practice. We never hear that a renown painter, writer, entertainer, or three point shooter practiced often, to become that good. Some guys shoot LR high master in a couple months.

It’s not a matter of not being smart enough to see a change or intuit one is due, and likely. We overcall a change very frequently, at least I do, such that being oblivious, blind and obstinate would have saved a 9. Ascribing the wrong solution to what is seen down range is so easy to do. A magnum (higher BC) should in theory keep you over the 10 more so that if you hit where you aim in the wind, it’s less costly.

 

[sdean]

I really like that interview series of Erik’s. They don’t always abandon them though, watch the V2 final match. IMO the very top finishers have wind reading skills that are so refined and competent that an extremely accurate rifle, within the parameters of reasonable BC, is all they need. They would shoot worse with a more finicky rifle, recoil, or chasing the peaks of barrel life with magnums. They would beat a good portion of the Open field with a .308.

The interviewees resolute on .284’s, and yes there are some including Etik, are being 100% honest about their personal experience. However, there is truly such a thing as magnum 10’s - 9’s with other-than-magnums for that person. A-/B+ wind readers shoot a lot more of these magnum 10’s, than points they will drop just because it’s a magnum. The best wind readers don’t miss “magnum 10’s” very often, with their standard cartridges, though, - it’s just a plain old “10” near the X for them, and so a magnum upside for them is smaller or nonexistent. Erik isn’t going to interview B+ wind readers though, the magnum 10 isn’t appreciated much, maybe even generally belittled, and A+ wind readers don’t gain anything encouraging 10 magnums on each of 4 relays, 7 of which shoot very small and 3 of which are steered by straight A callers, anymore than Phil Helmuth gains encouraging the table to “gamble” such that 4 guys make bad calls, and one busts him.

I can say this with certainty, and it won’t sound good, but on the same relay, with the exact same .284 cartridge and bullet as the top shooters in the country, if you are a rung or two below that consistently year after year, you stand zero chance of beating them. The wind will be the same, and you have no arguable, conceivable advantage, while being a consistent lesser caller. If we are going say .284’s are superior because they often win or because champions choose to shoot them, then in fairness to the counter view we have to examine how many of them enter and where they all pan out, relative to the whole field, and whether they win by even the expected ratio. Of course there is nothing wrong with enjoying trying to win but that not happening, because these are shooting matches after all and therefore fun, just being realistic.

I keep in mind that shooting in greater wind toughens up skills. See Australia’s National and F/TR’s standout skills. Shooting TR is functionally the same as shooting on a range in Open with more wind, or the same wind but at a longer distance. Here though, our Open guys will be hard pressed to practice in wind that all the usual competitors don’t also see.

So, can we all eventually have equal wind skills if we just work hard enough and load well enough, so that we have equal chances to win with .284’s. I say no. That has never been true in any endeavor, that hard work alone can overcome talent+work. Sometimes it can’t even overcome just talent, with no practice. We never hear that a renown painter, writer, entertainer, or three point shooter practiced often, to become that good. Some guys shoot LR high master in a couple months.

It’s not a matter of not being smart enough to see a change or intuit one is due, and likely. We overcall a change very frequently, at least I do, such that being oblivious, blind and obstinate would have saved a 9. Ascribing the wrong solution to what is seen down range is so easy to do. A magnum (higher BC) should in theory keep you over the 10 more so that if you hit where you aim in the wind, it’s less costly.

So sound like you are searching for a "lucky win" I had one this year and I didn't give back my V2 point but to be honest was not that satisfying. If a magnum would make you a winner then everyone would be shooting a magnum. Theory is a big word. So an A+ wind reader shooting a magnum should never loose. Yet they do. You are correct in that Talent and hard work is the best advantage.
As far as your brass problems a Shehane from new Lapua 284 brass should get you very decent speed..

 

[swd]

Looking at the ballistics is impressive but thinking about the recoil over 75 shots makes me flinch just thinking about it. It would definitely need a Rad and a soft thick pad.

 

[drop_point]

I really like that interview series of Erik’s. They don’t always abandon them though, watch the V2 final match. IMO the very top finishers have wind reading skills that are so refined and competent that an extremely accurate rifle, within the parameters of reasonable BC, is all they need. They would shoot worse with a more finicky rifle, recoil, or chasing the peaks of barrel life with magnums. They would beat a good portion of the Open field with a .308.

The interviewees resolute on .284’s, and yes there are some including Erik, are being 100% honest about their personal experience. However, there is truly such a thing as magnum 10’s - 9’s with other-than-magnums for that person. A-/B+ wind readers shoot a lot more of these magnum 10’s, than points they will drop just because it’s a magnum. The best wind readers don’t miss “magnum 10’s” very often, with their standard cartridges, though, - it’s just a plain old “10” near the X for them, and so a magnum upside for them is smaller or nonexistent. Erik isn’t going to interview B+ wind readers though, the magnum 10 isn’t appreciated much, maybe even generally belittled, and A+ wind readers don’t gain anything encouraging 10 magnums on each of 4 relays, 7 of which shoot very small and 3 of which are steered by straight A callers, anymore than Phil Helmuth gains encouraging the table to “gamble” such that 4 guys make bad calls, and one busts him.

I can say this with certainty, and it won’t sound good, but on the same relay, with the exact same .284 cartridge and bullet as the top shooters in the country, if you are a rung or two below that consistently year after year, you stand zero chance of beating them. The wind will be the same, and you have no arguable, conceivable advantage, while being a consistent lesser caller. If we are going say .284’s are superior because they often win or because champions choose to shoot them, then in fairness to the counter view we have to examine how many of them enter and where they all pan out, relative to the whole field, and whether they win by even the expected ratio. Of course there is nothing wrong with enjoying trying to win but that not happening, because these are shooting matches after all and therefore fun, just being realistic.

I keep in mind that shooting in greater wind toughens up skills. See Australia’s National and F/TR’s standout skills. Shooting TR is functionally the same as shooting on a range in Open with more wind, or the same wind but at a longer distance. Here though, our Open guys will be hard pressed to practice in wind that all the usual competitors don’t also see.

So, can we all eventually have equal wind skills if we just work hard enough and load well enough, so that we have equal chances to win with .284’s. I say no. That has never been true in any endeavor, that hard work alone can overcome talent+work. Sometimes it can’t even overcome just talent, with no practice. We never hear that a renown painter, writer, entertainer, or three point shooter practiced often, to become that good. Some guys shoot LR high master in a couple months.

It’s not a matter of not being smart enough to see a change or intuit one is due, and likely. We overcall a change very frequently, at least I do, such that being oblivious, blind and obstinate would have saved a 9. Ascribing the wrong solution to what is seen down range is so easy to do. A magnum (higher BC) should in theory keep you over the 10 more so that if you hit where you aim in the wind, it’s less costly.

I understand where you are coming from, but would the magnum not also provide a slight edge for shooters of Cortina's caliber? If there was true advantage there, wouldn't they use it to gain a leg up of their competition? Or perhaps the negatives outweigh the slight BC edge?

Running the numbers there is a 7" full-value of the .300 running 230s @2750 at 1k vs the .284 Win with 180 hybrids at the same speed. But just playing around, run the 195s at 2700, the .284 has a slight advantage. I'll bet there is a reason I don't know why this bullet isn't selected.

I've only dabbled in F-Class, and done fairly well at the local club despite not knowing what I was doing, I used it as a way to "practice" wind for PRS. I did win some of these local shoots with my PRS rig on a bipod vs full-on F-class rifles. I had seen people try to game PRS with big magnums. And its true they were rewarded with an advantage in the wind. But they also got themselves beat up to the point of fatigue over two-day matches, they rarely could easily spot their misses, and were extremely slow following up shots. I even saw one fellow win a fairly high profile match with his .300 Winchester Magnum. The next match I saw him, he was shooting a 6.5mm of some variety. I hope it doesn't work in such a way for you and you enjoy success with whatever decision you make! At the end of the day I don't think those with talent would neglect an attainable advantage if one existed. I look forward to seeing if you attain the edge you're looking for...keep us updated.

 

[davidjoe]

In the majority of matches, say 90% of wind conditions encountered, Erik would say a magnum wouldn’t improve his scores, but he’d be dealing with its tendency to shoot slightly larger groups, recoil more, and burn barrels all the time. I’ve had that conversation with him so I’m not surmising, there.

The wind can eventually get everyone but the critical question is how much can each handle. I’d liken F-Class wind to the progressive stages of the video games we grew up with. Some guys mastered the first 8 to 10 stages of a game and will absolutely not lose a life for 5 minutes into a given game. Everyone may be able to handle the morning match, half can handle the next match, but only a few can fairly cleanly pick their way through all but the most unusually windy matches.

Burning more powder almost always correlates with a gun shooting “bigger”, all other things equal. But often the slightly “bigger” group tendency with a magnum still nets more points, you might for example save three nines to wind, but lose an accuracy point and an X. If a magnum shoots a 9 or an occasional horizontal flyer edge 10, and you make an adjustment off that, you shoot a 9 based on a faulty aim point. But it won’t net you more points if the wind didn’t exceed your competency level on a given day, no matter what.

The 195’s both in a .284 and otherwise, have been a mainstay of mine since the first boxes shipped, and they have a following in F-class. They are super and there is a lot on here about them. The goal I’d have for the 300 WM and 34 inch barrels would be 2,740-ish, but with the 250 class bullets, not the 230’s. Particularly the 250 A-Tips. I’ve been happy with the 190 A-Tips.

 

[Djfergus]

I see what the 300 wsm has to offer and I understand. I suppose you are considering 300 win mag for it's brass availability. I wonder what sort of barrel life could be had from a 7mm rem mag case necked to 30 cal & throated to seat above the neck junction.

 

[davidjoe]

I see what the 300 wsm has to offer and I understand. I suppose you are considering 300 win mag for it's brass availability. I wonder what sort of barrel life could be had from a 7mm rem mag case necked to 30 cal & throated to seat above the neck junction.

Yeah, it’s brass availability that is squeezing my Saum enthusiasm, along with shorter barrel life. Norma abandoning the saum cartridge users has me extremely reluctant to move to the WSM, where I’d be again buying Norma brass, essentially reinforcing their decision to drop the Saum, and no closer to having Lapua or other options.

Also, I’ve seen WSM brass spike to nearly $3.00 a round when supplies dwindled. I’ve put in an order for Lapua and Peterson 300 WM to try both. I’ve seen on 4AW the 250’s chrono 2,770 in his 26” WM, which was faster than the PRC tested concurrently with the same powder charge. Mark indicated going up a grain. I’d imagine 2,750 in a 34 inch 8 twist is a mild to moderate load.

 

[drop_point]

7 SAUM (Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum) - Atlasdg.com

IF THE PRODUCT IS OUT OF STOCK – SIGN UP FOR THE WAITLIST TO BE NOTIFIED WHEN IT IS AVAILABLE ON OUR WEBSITE! 7 SAUM (Short Action Ultra Mag) – ADG manufactured brass is optimized not only for consistency in performance, but also for durability. One of the ways we accomplished this is by...

atlasdg.com

I see this stuff come into stock time to time.

 

[davidjoe]

It’s fantastic to find quality brass. That’s the whole reason for the experiment. This may or may not shoot inside an rsaum (mine with 190’s) but the WM cartridge is going nowhere, and these two brass makers in the game are reason enough for me to proceed.




In addition to brass, 4AW has found that the WM exceeds the velocity with lower pressure than the 300 PRC, when the heaviest bullets are used. This kind of information publicly shared was invaluable to come across.

My plan would be to use the heaviest bullets, only them, until dissatisfied for some reason. The 250 A-Tip next to a 6BR case, for comparison is the highest BC bullet available for F-Class, and of course, unused by roughly 100% of competitors, at least in their F-Class guns.

 

[Sandstorm]

I like where your going with this David..Its good to see innovation and experimentation
in this sport of ours...
Many of us find something that works and we lack motivation or funds or time to keep thinking
outside the box and to go further.....lets see how this pans out...the A-tip is a formidable projectile and with the right push,who knows..?

 

[std7mag]

I'm following along, awaiting on a range report.

I'm all for experimenting and not following the "norms".

I got into short range bench rest last year.
When i mentioned about building a rifle specifically for that, (local matches for fun only, i have no aspirations on being a National shooter) i was told "buy a known winning rifle, from a known smith, in 6BR. Because that's what everyone is shooting.".

That's not me.
So i'm building a 250 Savage on a Savage Axis action.
If it shoots patterns instead of groups, well that's on me.
If it does well, then....

 

[marchx]

Very important considerations by @davidjoe . Let me put my 2 cents. My thinking starts with a range where I am going to shoot. We are talking about Europe here. Few 300m+ ranges. I shoot my matches 80% at quite narrow range, circumvented by forrest. Wind is no issue there. 20% matches I shoot at military ranges, very wide where calling a wind is a decisive factor. At range no. 1 you don't have to shoot .284 in order to win. You can win shooting 6.5CM, 6.5x47 or even 6BR. Next season I will skip the military ranges matches, since wind changes every 5 minutes over there and for an average wind caller it's a russian roulette.

 

[Willow]

Your issue will be barrel heat when shooting your typical 20 shot strings - bad enough you get unlimited sighters which just adds to the problem. Cartridges like the 7SAUM are popular in Australia as we don't have 20 shot strings, at most we have 15, and even allowing for our summer's, a 7SAUM is ok as we are only allowed 2 sighters, so a max of 17 going down the barrel during string fire in big matches is ok.

I recall you had Berger 195s blow up on you in your SAUM during a big match, where you had fired more than 20 shots with a few sighters already being fired. Now bearing that in mind, if you're going to stuff well over 70 grains of powder into a 300WM and hope it saves you a point or two over a match, just remember how many points it will cost you if your bullets don't make it to the target. I'm all for experimentation in this sport, but I'd be applying some risk management here too - can you safely get say 22-30 rounds down a barrel burning 75gr of powder per shot with a 250gr pill and not suffer ill consequences?

 

[6MMsteve]

today shooting in Ky would test the best skills any shooter could gather, that wind is howling out there. will be tomoro also gonna shoot some though so I can get frustrated