F-Open: 300 WM?

[davidjoe]

I’m still waiting on my barrel order, presently. I have a good start on brass now in Lapua and Peterson, and even a little Norma-made AB head-stamped. I have slow end powders ready to try, primers, my reamer, 30 cal throater and bullets.

For testing, I have 200’s at the light end and 250’s at the top. Some, not a lot, of 230’s, 215’s, and the heavy SMK, for comparison. I’m very hopeful for the 250’s, as I’ve accumulated well more than an experimental number of boxes of them at this point. My 7mm barrel orders have typically taken time as they are all from 1.50” bar stock (for the Surgeon XL single shot actions) with a straight taper after about 5 inches, to 1.0” at anywhere from 33-35.5, and usually ordered in a set of eight, so they must wait for machine time and aren’t very adaptable to being combined and run with others. This order fits that same description and will be eight fast twist (1:8) 5-R’s but finish at 1.15” instead of 1.0” and toward the shorter end of the range,

I have shot a large number of old school 300 WM comp rifles. It seems that for a couple of decades, at least, but ending before actual F-Class was started, this round was extremely popular for long range open sight or scoped rifle competition, lighter bullets but also a lighter, typically slung, prone fire rig. Admittedly, that they did it back then, is something I have relied on implicitly, in jumping in, without speaking to anyone about how that worked, purely on the fact they shot the round in matches until early-on Berger, I’m supposing, made such BC strides, that it became unnecessary to burn that much powder. By the time I started matches 300 WM’s were long gone. I have 300WM’s, some being old 40-X’s from back then, but nothing that approaches 22 pounds or is ideal for the heaviest bullets. I believe a 1:10 is my current fastest twist 300 WM. The surgeon/1.50” setup I use in open won’t be overwhelmed by the WM in terms of heat or vibration, as I have run it all the way up the 300 grain bullets, but I do think it’s going to be hard pressed to keep up with 7 saums.

 

[davidjoe]

DavidJoe, how many times have you tested recoil of .300 WM using heavy (210gr up to 245gr.). The heavy bullets in this caliber recoil violently compared to a standard WM hunting load using 165-180gr bullets. Sure, the 215 Hybrids as well as the 230 Hybrids (prefer the 230 Hybrid OTM over the longer 230 Hybrid Target) have fantastic performance…and could possibly enjoy a ballistic edge over the .284 . Berger 215 Hybrid or the 230 Hybrid with muzzle velocities
of 2950-3050 generates too much recoil for 3 20 shot strings Without a muzzle brake, Its too much for many to shoot period.

lit you already have a barrel chambered in 300 WM the load some heavy bullets and shoot a 20 round string under match type rules (prone, mech rest, rear bag, etc). If you had tested in this manner, you would’ve already known the answer mid string.

lit you must try the .30 cal magnum then get premium barrel chambered in .300 WSM with throat cut long enough to get heavy billets out of the powder column (.200-.250” freebore for the 215’s and 230’s.
The .300 WSM does not recoil as hard as the WM. WSM is inherently more accurate
as well.

Guys have done extremely well with the WSM. The heaviest bullets don’t seem to score better with it though, than lighter bullets. A few shooters have mentioned this, after trying them.

For me, I have been able to score better with heavy bullets (high BC), and smaller wind calls, than I do when I shoot the mainstay bullet weight, (180 in a 7) from a given cartridge. They shoot flat for me, I simply lose too many points to the liner 9’s or regular nines. In fact my .284’s with 195’s have always shot inside my saums, if I load the saums with 180’s. The saums loaded with heavies are, for my level of slowly improving wind skills, the best combination I’ve tried so far, but the brass supply is frustrating.

While I can use what I have for a reasonably long time still, it’s not anywhere near how long I plan to shoot, and something has to be done for the magnum option. I won’t chamber these barrels all to WM, immediately. I just can’t see ordering thousands of pieces of 300 WSM brass from Norma, though, when I’m very perturbed they dropped the saum, after I had done just that with the 7 saum. It seems a brand that is expanding its line for us like Lapua and Peterson should get the business.

 

[davidjoe]

With Lapua and Peterson match quality brass in 300 Winchester Magnum, and now these super 1.45” tapered 5R 8 twists from Bartlein at 35 inches for 250 gr., - I am going to soon prove, once and for all that the .284 with 180 Berger hybrids and 54.4 grains of H-4831SC is an unbeatable combination in LR Fclass. )

 

[Dave M.]

Chronic 7 Saum brass unavailability has me convinced that it’s time to work a substitution into my F-Open options.

At about the same time the last Norma 7 Saum inventory remnants disappeared, I noticed that Lapua introduced 300 WM brass, and Peterson already made an L version (long) that didn’t head space off the belt.

30’s seem to be where frustrated 7mm barrel life chasers have been turning, and I’m wondering, is there is any reason not to chamber a long action cartridge?

My single shot actions were designed for the .338 LM anyway, and while I know a few years ago WSM brass supplies seemed likely to soon include tough, match grade brass makers like Lapua and Peterson, they haven’t joined the short mag party, and while ADG has, they haven’t kept up with demand.

Presently 300 WM brass by Lapua and Peterson is not only available, it’s also reasonably priced, - less than 300 WSM by a good margin.

If very heavy bullet/very slow burning powder is the expected formula and magazine length is irrelevant, any reason not to look at standard magnums?

300win mag seems like overkill for F open, what distance are you talking about? I assume 1000 yards because it would way too much gun for 600 yards.

 

[davidjoe]

300win mag seems like overkill for F open, what distance are you talking about? I assume 1000 yards because it would way too much gun for 600 yards.

I’ve been very happy with the 7 RSAUM, but brass supply is just too unreliable. The short action magnums were introduced for hunting, but turned out to be great for Fclass, the problem is that there aren’t enough of us, and they are not selling well commercially in the broad market.

Norma didn’t give any warning to stock up on 7 rsaum brass, I don’t think it has ever officially announced a discontinuation. We were just left to figure out that maybe no more was ever coming. The 300 WSM is, broadly speaking, no more popular than the SAUMs. I have probably 5k Norma saum cases, plus some ADG, and with that kind of support and reliance on long term future usage, I won’t risk another tablecloth yank by Norma. These barrels were ordered as 7’s and changed before production, realizing that ADG was slow, Norma was never, and Lapua was blank-staring back whenever the saum subject came up.

The 300 WSM is too iffy for me to start in, today. 8 years ago we thought the expected match brass makers would support it. Shockingly to me, they haven’t, even though they have rolled out other cases, including now the 300 WM. I don’t shoot the WSM, but if I did I would be buying all I could bear.

For me, it won’t even be an every 1,000 match choice. Windy option, maybe. I’m within 3 days of first range testing. But when Lapua and Peterson introduce it around the same time that new heavy ultra high bc bullets come out, that won’t work with the WSM, and Norma abandons the 7 saum, that’s just too many pieces aligning to not respond, with a try. Guys used it a generation and more ago apparently rather prolifically in prone matches. I just can’t get burned twice by Norma.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I’ve been very happy with the 7 RSAUM, but brass supply is just too unreliable. The short action magnums were introduced for hunting, but turned out to be great for Fclass, the problem is that there aren’t enough of us, and they are not selling well commercially in the broad market.

Norma didn’t give any warning to stock up on 7 rsaum brass, I don’t think it has ever officially announced a discontinuation. We were just left to figure out that maybe no more was ever coming. The 300 WSM is, broadly speaking, no more popular than the SAUMs. I have probably 5k Norma saum cases, plus some ADG, and with that kind of support and reliance on long term future usage, I won’t risk another tablecloth yank by Norma. These barrels were ordered as 7’s and changed before production, realizing that ADG was slow, Norma was never, and Lapua was blank-staring back whenever the saum subject came up.

The 300 WSM is too iffy for me to start in, today. 8 years ago we thought the expected match brass makers would support it. Shockingly to me, they haven’t, even though they have rolled out other cases, including now the 300 WM. I don’t shoot the WSM, but if I did I would be buying all I could bear.

For me, it won’t even be an every 1,000 match choice. Windy option, maybe. I’m within 3 days of first range testing. But when Lapua and Peterson introduce it around the same time that new heavy ultra high bullets come out, that won’t work with the WSM, and Norma abandons the 7 saum, that’s just too many pieces aligning to not respond, with a try. Guys used it a generation and more ago apparently rather prolifically. I just can’t get burned twice by Norma.

As for Norma Burning You.
You are not alone, Norma has dropped 6 Norma Dasher Brass as will

 

[davidjoe]

First shots at 600 yards, today. I don’t have a lot of my favored powders to spare but in the breeze I shot in, this is entirely acceptable. Target notes explain the shots. The barrel had ~20 rounds through it from last week, at 200.

When I shoot paper I use a constant aim point even if I’m able to discern holes, and I could see the first hole after the drive to find the hiding sighters, and my first shot after a target check almost always lands high.

Looking at my come-ups from 200 and the primers, the cartridge-bullet combo with such a long barrel, does actually hit or slightly better the level of 4.0 moa drift at 1k in 10 mph Fv, which means it could actually shoot inside my saums. I had doubted this based on reported velocities I read about, but they were shooting ~27 inch barrels. I underestimated how much more velocity a 34 inch barrel permits.

I haven’t deprimed the first round yet, and I’m not looking for only single digit reloads, but I’m very happy with how those primers and brass look at this pressure level.

 

[Sandstorm]

David .. thats looking good from here.
Im pleasantly surprised it shot that right out of the box. You may be on to something here.

 

[Pinkes]

Interesting.. What velocities are you getting with the 250s and the 34'' barrel?

 

[davidjoe]

Interesting.. What velocities are you getting with the 250s and the 34'' barrel?

Another interesting thing to me was that my last 10 shots yesterday were a full 1.0 grain higher than the first two rows. I’ll refrain from load data per se, but if you enlarge the picture on screen mirroring to your flat screen, it’s still hard to discern any pressure difference between the last 10 shots fired, and the prior shots, but that is every bit a full additional grain in charge. I’ll know more when I decap that whole box and try to feel a difference, but by appearance its not a hot load at all.

I’m estimating 2,850 based on come ups from 200 by manipulating JBM velocity at my G1 until it matches what I dialed. What’s encouraging to me, is that I run my saums and .284’s at higher pressure than this brass indicates. Brass was an original consideration in the decision.

If I run G1’s to compare apples to apples, although this seems impossible, 2,850 with this bullet equates to 4.1 moa drift at 1,000, and comparing that to the Berger 215 at .691, it drifts 4.1 moa at 3,500 fps.(?)

The 215 can be tipped though. Anyhow, to your original question, the extra barrel length yields 150 fps more than one writer saw with the charge weight I used in the last 10 shots.

 

[Will Henry]

You can easily open up the 40X to allow ejection of loaded rounds. Nonetheless, I would lean toward a 30/338 instead of the 300WM.
The PRC is probably a good choice. It's just about the same as a 30 Newton! It only took a hundred years to get back there. WH

 

[std7mag]

@davidjoe,

Any further update?
Have you used in a match yet?

 

[tvaught]

@davidjoe,

Any further update?
Have you used in a match yet?

He shot it in a match called the V2 Finale. He and his rifle shot very very well with it.

 

[davidjoe]

I had just enough time in with the 300 WM when my name came up on V2, to decide to go with it.

That was a fantastic time. Tim was one of the reasons I was comfortable with taking a newer project, as he had recently tested my gun in down time in the prior LR monthly in Texas.

Tim’s blue-tape ammo label for match 1 against me, foretells the story and we actually were recorded so I won’t go into too much detail, in case it gets picked, but I was very happy to be right about in the middle of the open scores when I shot with Tim.

Presently, I’m working on two things with them simultaneously, isolating a flyer issue, as these really do want to shoot otherwise, and confirming that after the first throated gun as the control, that deeper bullet seating can eliminate the step of throating, as there truly is no limitation on case capacity, with this much volume to work with.

I do have both throat types running now, the SAAMI spec puts a jumped bullet body below the shoulder of course but I have vetted that in my saums and it’s really not the major issue we read. I’m now about sure that no throating can be offset just fine with deeper seating, after seeing clearly last monthly LR match, that simply using rounds for the throated gun shoot large in the spec reamer throat. These bullets must be jumped, a lot, and I knew better, even though at 600, they appeared ok to use for LR.

As to a shot out of group, in addition to Tim, Omar, Neil and Erik have also put rounds down at LR. There have been some really nice little runs so far. Erik put 3/4 in or by the letter X, right after dialing from a cold bore 7, with the throated gun last dialed for V2, in the final few minutes of a relay, before we started the pair fire portion, giving me two sighter X’s to start, and it stayed strong. The throated gun didn’t display a low flyer in its last use, the club match pair fire portion, but it has, including when Erik shot it right before that match, and it looks like this when it happens, in this picture of Tim’s target, below.

This low shot out of group is the kind of flyer I’m ironing on. The bag/rest has been mentioned by three guys shooting it, as suspect. However, Neil at V2 used this gun for match in his own setup, after a barrel issue, and low impact was also problem. Being tested, (and not ruling out a very well-used 15 year old scale), but part of shooting in 2022 is that we can’t find things we need, like h-1000 powder, slowing the development curve.

 

[davidjoe]

I found this picture of the last match Neil shot. A shot went up, but I think in the first match, low was the issue. Neil was new to the gun as of that day, and I think he shot the Win Mag super. Until the end, he was even numbers, then David finished and Neil was even and odd including the last shot.

 

[NA Woody]

I found this picture of the last match Neil shot. A shot went up, but I think in the first match, low was the issue. Neil was new to the gun as of that day, and I think he shot the Win Mag super. Until the end, he was even numbers, then David finished and Neil was even and odd including the last shot.

View attachment 1354977

I figured David's 300WM rig would be a bear to shoot with 250s going around 2850fps. After I shot it a couple of times I realized the felt recoil was no worse than a WSM shooting 215s. I guess the stock design was a big factor.
I appreciate David offering it to me to shoot as my rig suddenly started shooting big at the worst possible time!

 

[Sandstorm]

Pleasantly surprised at how well this is coming together..
thanks for the share David.
John

 

[davidjoe]

You guys may have seen that at V2, I had a big bag of peanut M&M’s in a Tom Thumb grocery store crate with an optimistic number of 300 WM loads.

While some guys helped eat all those M&M’s, and Mr. Woody helped with some of those rounds, many more still remained for that same gun.

As this load combination is basically an experiment and any good experiment needs the variables controlled, like shooter error, which is outside my admittedly regular joe shooting skills in the F-Good crowd I shoot with, I’m at a loss.

But how interesting would it be for a really good shooter to shoot a whole club match with it, like a Long Range national champion.

Well, the Bayou club has those, and Mr. Tim Vaught, who’s not in much need for V2 points right now - graciously agreed to vet this gun and load by shooting it in the next club match, with his rest set up.

So if Tim’s scores aren’t his usual, know that nothing is wrong with him, he is shooting my loads and gun!

 

[hseII]

that number is most likely 10,000 to 1. maybe even 100k to 1. yes I get your point. but I currently see brass for the PRC. I believe there was someone building a PRC target rifle. Maybe it was Frank from Bartlein? Looking at the load data seems like the nodes are huge. HOwever it does take a ton of powder to run those big boys. Maybe squish the parent case down for some jazzy wildcat David Joe case

ADG 300 PRC Brass

ADG 300 PRC Brass Carefully readthis description! You will likely have to change your load for ADG brass. ADG 300 PRC brass was designed not only for consistency, but for durability. One of the ways we accomplished this was adding material to the case in specific areas to strengthen...

www.creedmoorsports.com

Creedmoor has it in stock

I’ve wondered how long before someone takes the Peterson 300 PRC brass & makes a SAUM/WSM like off of it.

 

[davidjoe]

Tim is just one fantastic guy, but most recently for helping me today with an iffy gun, two of them, in fact. He’s deservedly put all of that far behind him, in his own guns, he just won the F-Class nationals in individual and team, and the Astros won the World Series last night, with all of Houston celebrating, including this guy, yet Tim came to the range bright and early and shot two 300 Win Mags, for 90 record shots at 1,000.



In the big picture, the fall months have mild wind conditions in Houston. Today saw some pretty scores and upper end X counts, by the usuals. Both guns have 5-R barrels, one in a Manners F-Class, one in a McMillan Kestros Rail. One barrel was throated and the other left spec, so seating depth differs. The load in theory, (H-1000, 250 A-Tip, Peterson Long) has high performance potential, again in theory, but I have had difficulty seeing juice worth he squeeze. The whole idea was to avoid SAUM brass shortages.

I have wondered how much of that so-so agging was me, and how much was the load or the guns, and so Tim agreed to help sort this out.

Tim is getting the most performance from any given magnum in the F-Class shooters’ community, and if his target doesn’t show it, then the gun simply isn’t producing up to par, and that was the big question.

So how’d the guns do with Tim? In short, Tim’s solidity as a human backstop, trigger puller and his wind calls netted more points than I have seen with them, yet, unquestionably he would have shot cleans with his guns today, so there is work to be done on the loads and guns, and we talked about that, including my letting a barrel be free-floated, amongst several other seemingly uncontroversial rifle truisms that have eluded me, such as bedding my actions. So, there is no reason to assume my guns maximize this load potential, but that said, here’s a couple results.

Tim’s first target. This was the Manners stock with long throat. The velocity at the target was good, but the SD’s were not, and this match was mild wind.




I shot a Saum most of the day, the cartridge so frustrating to find brass for. My best SAUM score below was exactly the same as Tim’s best score, above, and this target was shot with with Berger 180 Hybrids, after trying several sighters with others.

My Saum scores ended up being very slightly higher than the 300 WM scores, and that is with Tim driving the 300’s, which anyone else would have been very hard pressed to match him on.




The 300’s showed smaller SD after match one, but that did not necessarily translate to more points. Both of Tim’s next targets had low SD, but the scores did not go up nor was grouping tighter.






Below, the saum with 195’s also carries a lot of velocity to the target, but with much, much more brass pressure, to get similar hold offs.





It’s actually fairly likely, looking at all the targets, and the two from each of us that I did not attach which were similar, that there are commonalities between all my guns that need to be rethought or tweaked, that should leave open the question of the utility of the 300 and a 250 class bullet.

I’ll say that my 250’s were not sorted or modified. All my Bergers are tipped but today’s old loads were not sorted.

These were not good scores today whatsoever, among the shooters present. Poor Tim needs a big asterisk by his Bayou records on this one, but thank you! For me I’ve got some great input from Tim that will be followed up on.