F class sighters

[Jeff Porter]

The one who gets the luckiest wins

No - He who makes the least mistakes wins.

 

[No i deer]

Luck is seeing a big change making a good call and getting an X, skill is knowing you’re probably not dropping more than one, relying on luck gets you a 6.

I've always felt a bit lucky if I done well..

 

[Bob3700]

The more sightseers u are allowed before record shots, the less wind reading ability u will develop. It is that simple.
At a 1 K match, unlimited for the first match gives the new/ less experienced or just a new combination the opportunity to get on target n zeroed. After that, two sightseers.
It is a game of marksmanship n skill. It is not supposed to be easy to win the match.

 

[swd]

The more sightseers u are allowed before record shots, the less wind reading ability u will develop. It is that simple.
At a 1 K match, unlimited for the first match gives the new/ less experienced or just a new combination the opportunity to get on target n zeroed. After that, two sightseers.
It is a game of marksmanship n skill. It is not supposed to be easy to win the match.

I find the exact opposite. The more sighters I have the more wind reading skills I learn that stay with me over the months and years. As far as making it easy to win a match, everyone at the match is in the same boat so I’m not sure how it benefits only the match winner.

 

[Bob3700]

I find the exact opposite. The more sighters I have the more wind reading skills I learn that stay with me over the months and years. As far as making it easy to win a match, everyone at the match is in the same boat so I’m not sure how it benefits only the match winner.

If u had to look at the flags n mirage n call the wind on that first shot. vs judging the changes after five or six sightseers u would see the difference in ur wind reading skills.
After two sightseers u are just refining a zero u should already have.

 

[Bob3700]

I find the exact opposite. The more sighters I have the more wind reading skills I learn that stay with me over the months and years. As far as making it easy to win a match, everyone at the match is in the same boat so I’m not sure how it benefits only the match winner.

Here is an idea, just make F- Class targets with a slighter target above the record target. Like small bore prone, u can shoot as many sighters as u want on the slighter target but u have to score ur records shots on the lower target. U get that many more opportunities to see how the wind is affecting ur POI. Top shooters in smallbore prone are usually clean and X count determines the winner.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Every shot I take I'm learning something. I don't care if it's 1-2 or unlimited sighters. If some think I've come to a match unprepared, I can care less. JMO.

 

[XTR]

Why don’t we leave F class alone. It works pretty well like it is.

If you want to “fix” something go fix e-targets and their use, or go get in the Service Rifle rules mosh pit. You’ll have a blast.

 

[swd]

Here is an idea, just make F- Class targets with a slighter target above the record target. Like small bore prone, u can shoot as many sighters as u want on the slighter target but u have to score ur records shots on the lower target. U get that many more opportunities to see how the wind is affecting ur POI. Top shooters in smallbore prone are usually clean and X count determines the winner.

Adding a sighter target to a target that gets pulled and marked for every shot doesn’t make any sense.

I’m good with how things are. The MD decides the format of the day with limited or unlimited sighters. I shoot either way. The more shooting you get the more opportunity you have to learn. I’ll use the extra sighters if I need them, when they’re available.

 

[No i deer]

Here is an idea, just make F- Class targets with a slighter target above the record target. Like small bore prone, u can shoot as many sighters as u want on the slighter target but u have to score ur records shots on the lower target. U get that many more opportunities to see how the wind is affecting ur POI. Top shooters in smallbore prone are usually clean and X count determines the winner.

 

[Rset]

Here is an idea, just make F- Class targets with a slighter target above the record target. Like small bore prone, u can shoot as many sighters as u want on the slighter target but u have to score ur records shots on the lower target. U get that many more opportunities to see how the wind is affecting ur POI. Top shooters in smallbore prone are usually clean and X count determines the winner.

Here's an idea. Quit trying to fix what isn't broken. I can't remember a time when the better shooter was beat by the person taking more sighting shots.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Ok, I might be wrong but I think the elephant in the room is regarding those that tune with sighters. Am I wrong and why does it matter? Seriously. Go any way you choose. Shoot as many sighters as you choose, and everybody have a good time. I can only see fewer sighters as penalizing new or newer shooters. There it is. I said it. Now respectfully, tell me why that's wrong.
Tuners are a hot topic and some active posters in this thread have admitted they work but advocated against them, for what I consider obscure "what ifs". But that's my view and I'm more interested in getting that out there than actually having a say in how it's done. If a rule change were implemented, would records be retired? I think if someone came with legal equipment, and that equipment benefitted him from shooting sighters to tune with, that's no different than checking load A vs load B, etc.

Is that not done? If not, you're missing opportunities here to come with a rifle that's tuned to the condition you ARE shooting in. So no, it's not strictly about tuners, but tuning in general, by whatever method. It was brought up early on about a shooter firing 13 shots to tune his rifle. He's a tuner user but I would consider that irrelevant. Tuning is tuning and there are different ways to achieve it. But speaking of luck...Loading by the weather forecast, days ahead...that's luck.

I'd hate to think any game wants to penalize anyone for showing up and doing what works best for him, to shoot the best scores he possibly can, within the rules.

Everyone,

I do object to tuning on the line. It is self-defeating, as it is mathematically impossible to tell a good load from a bad one in so few shots, and shooting enough shots to know has bad results too, from overheating the barrel. My goal is to remove the self-defeating stuff from common use and replace it with effective, proven, winning techniques.

I apologize for distracting this thread with the remainder of this response, but this has to be answered...

Mike,

You mean one poster- Me!

The reason for our polar opposite experiences? We shoot different games! I don't know diddly about Benchrest, other than there are multiple organizing bodies and distances. I'll take your word that tuners are ideal answers in Benchrest, as I have no idea how to play your game.

That said, there is more to the F-class game than having a tuned rifle. I've proven it far too many times shooting very poorly tuned rifles against shooters with nearly perfect tunes, and I'm not the only one that does it with regularity.

The difference in my experience? The tune was in my competitor's head, rent free, while I was free to spend my energy on better wind calls and strategy. That is the secret of F-class, staying ahead of conditions with good wind calls and strategy. Any decent rifle, even if slightly out of tune, will do. The 10 ring is 10" in diameter at 1000 yards for God's sake, and all day, much less all match, cleans are exceedingly rare at long range!

My video is a compilation of observations from nearly a decade of using and watching others use tuners. You may not see it the way I do, but you haven't seen what I've seen. That's why the video is titled what it is - Why I don't use tuners.

Before you tell me I should have called you, I did, back in 2015, when I first installed your tuner, and we spoke for about an hour. I learned how to use your tuner, inside and out.

I've hovered above the fray of the disingenuous marketing that has been going on online (not you Mike) for a little longer than I should have, but being called out here opens a door I was unwilling to push on.

With the distinct exception of Tim Vaught, who won 2022 Nationals with one of your PDT tuners, what other F-class Long Range National Champions have won with a tuner installed? I'll wait while you check the photos... Then tell me *if* they won because of the tuner, or in spite of it. We have to keep in mind that correlation does not equal causation (that applies to my position as well).

I know because I was right there, and shoot with these incredible marksmen in real life. The point is: I am not the only successful F-Open shooter to abandon tuners entirely and benefit from it.

I recently made a video calling out a different tuner maker for mocking people that have done good science, and found the benefits to be dubious with the recommended testing protocols.

I'm all good with disagreement, but the cancel-culture crap needs to stop (not you Mike).

Once again, I appologize for hijacking this thread with this beef. Back to your normally scheduled programming...

 

[Bill Norris]

If you are speaking of Litz and his "good science" testing and calling that good then I would suggest you really take a close look at his testing protocols. Dang sure leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

If you are speaking of Litz and his "good science" testing and calling that good then I would suggest you really take a close look at his testing protocols. Dang sure leaves a lot to be desired.

Once again, I appologize for this distraction.

Bill, let's discuss Litz' book in another thread. This one is about the number of sighters in F-class.

 

[Bill Norris]

Really not worth discussion.

 

[XTR]

@Keith Glasscock , I agree with you, but Ian uses one, and Fritz won the V2 and he uses one. (I know you open guys forget us but F-TR is still F Class. )

 

[No i deer]

Varied opinions on unlimited siters..
some for some against and some who don't feel you need them..
For me I like the 1 minute blow off and the 2 siters..
I quite often have the adrenaline going with the first few shots then I settle..!!
I don't get excited about much these days but that buzz at the start trying so hard for a solid start is great..!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Everyone,

I do object to tuning on the line. It is self-defeating, as it is mathematically impossible to tell a good load from a bad one in so few shots, and shooting enough shots to know has bad results too, from overheating the barrel. My goal is to remove the self-defeating stuff from common use and replace it with effective, proven, winning techniques.

I apologize for distracting this thread with the remainder of this response, but this has to be answered...

Mike,

You mean one poster- Me!

The reason for our polar opposite experiences? We shoot different games! I don't know diddly about Benchrest, other than there are multiple organizing bodies and distances. I'll take your word that tuners are ideal answers in Benchrest, as I have no idea how to play your game.

That said, there is more to the F-class game than having a tuned rifle. I've proven it far too many times shooting very poorly tuned rifles against shooters with nearly perfect tunes, and I'm not the only one that does it with regularity.

The difference in my experience? The tune was in my competitor's head, rent free, while I was free to spend my energy on better wind calls and strategy. That is the secret of F-class, staying ahead of conditions with good wind calls and strategy. Any decent rifle, even if slightly out of tune, will do. The 10 ring is 10" in diameter at 1000 yards for God's sake, and all day, much less all match, cleans are exceedingly rare at long range!

My video is a compilation of observations from nearly a decade of using and watching others use tuners. You may not see it the way I do, but you haven't seen what I've seen. That's why the video is titled what it is - Why I don't use tuners.

Before you tell me I should have called you, I did, back in 2015, when I first installed your tuner, and we spoke for about an hour. I learned how to use your tuner, inside and out.

I've hovered above the fray of the disingenuous marketing that has been going on online (not you Mike) for a little longer than I should have, but being called out here opens a door I was unwilling to push on.

With the distinct exception of Tim Vaught, who won 2022 Nationals with one of your PDT tuners, what other F-class Long Range National Champions have won with a tuner installed? I'll wait while you check the photos... Then tell me *if* they won because of the tuner, or in spite of it. We have to keep in mind that correlation does not equal causation (that applies to my position as well).

I know because I was right there, and shoot with these incredible marksmen in real life. The point is: I am not the only successful F-Open shooter to abandon tuners entirely and benefit from it.

I recently made a video calling out a different tuner maker for mocking people that have done good science, and found the benefits to be dubious with the recommended testing protocols.

I'm all good with disagreement, but the cancel-culture crap needs to stop (not you Mike).

Once again, I appologize for hijacking this thread with this beef. Back to your normally scheduled programming...

Two things...I've lost count of how many f class shooters are running my tuners, a long time ago. But they have been on muliple national shooting team's rifles, ours and Canada, a few years back when they slipped in there and won the Worlds.

As to wind...I agree. It's always the biggest factor. If you pull the trigger in a switch, it won't go where you want it to, with or without regard for tune or tuners. That said, I'll take a well tuned rifle over one that's not, every single day, in any of the accuracy sports. I don't think many will disagree, but who knows?

One more thing...Your video is misleading in regard to the tuner moving. If my tuner moves like yours does in the video, you don't have the nylon tipped tension screws set properly at all. While making the point that it "might" move accidentally as a reason not to use them, that seems disingenuous on its face.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Probably one of the most common questions I get is should I use a tuner? If its a new shooter, I say not yet. I want them to learn to tune first. If its an experianced guy I say you have to try one to know if its for you. Still most of my more successful customers do not use them, but many will never get a barrel without one.

 

[Bill Norris]

Probably one of the most common questions I get is should I use a tuner? If its a new shooter, I say not yet. I want them to learn to tune first. If its an experianced guy I say you have to try one to know if its for you. Still most of my more successful customers do not use them, but many will never get a barrel without one.

I think it has to be said that a tuner may not be for everyone. Some like the idea of old school tuning by powder & charge along with seating depth and neck tension. But, some like the idea of adding the tuner for atmospheric & temp changes. Simple as that. And another but, there is NOTHING CONCLUSIVE NOWHERE that says a tuner does not work when understood and used properly. If I'm wrong show me. Keep in mind guys win using tuners too.