F-Class participation?

[Erud]

The thread about the California State Long Range Championship got me wondering about trends in F-Class participation. I started shooting competitively in 2007, and at that time, F-class wasn't very big at all in the upper midwest. 4 or 5 years ago, it was starting to look like F-Class was going to take over the world, with way more f-shooters than sling at prone matches that I attended, and practically all new shooters going straight to f-class. Now, in the last 2 or 3 years it seems like f-class numbers have either gone down, or at best remained stagnant. At many local matches, it's back to sling outnumbering f-class again.

Is this just a local trend, or are you folks seeing this in other parts of the country? Clearly the Berger SWN didn't have a problem selling out with mostly F-Class shooters, but that is such a destination match that I don't know if those numbers translate to anything else. Any ideas as to why it might be happening, if it is? Just looking to start a discussion, not start a fight between sling and F.

Thanks,
Erik

 

[Jay Christopherson]

From my perspective, the ratio of new shooters going to F-Class is still far higher. Local participation here still generally favors F-Class over sling. But, with respect to local matches, I think you are seeing F-Class guys "aging out". Meaning, it takes a lot of time and effort to travel to large matches. Most guys can probably only manage 2 or 3 a year (speaking from my own experience). There's almost zero recognition (i.e., incentive) for F-Class shooters in local matches - for example, our own WA State Mid-Range championship hands out a perpetual trophy, plaques, etc... for the sling shooters. In F-Class, only the top F-Open shooter even got a mention.

I bring this up not as a knock per se, but as a segue into my point - which is, once you start traveling and going to the time and effort to work up a load and barrel capable of competing at national quality matches, local mid-range matches (which I think might make up the bulk of matches for F-Class shooters) are mostly useful for load development. And of those, why not go to the ones that actually recognize you as a shooter?

So yeah, I think you see the more experienced F-Class shooters show up to fewer local matches as they cherry-pick the ones where they are:

A. competing against other shooters at their level and not just discouraging newer shooters
B. being recognized, even just by mention, for accomplishing something (winning or placing)
C. able to fit in with the time demands for working up to traveling to national quality matches

I think you see periods where a lot of new shooters jump into F-Class. They're super active at local matches for a couple years and then start to taper off as they build to larger matches and traveling and all the demands that go with that. I think if you were to graph it, it would look a lot like a series of peaks and valleys (java garbage collection anyone?) over time.

Personally, I think sling shooting is a lot more demanding physically and requires far more muscle memory and so requires more consistent time at local matches and practice to build and maintain.

 

[ShootDots]

I have a few ideas, whether they are right or not is open for discussion.
1.) F-Class is appealing because you don't have to wear one of those heavy jackets. Hot and or hot / humid weather would make them jackets nearly intolerable.
2.) From what I have been told, the very complex "iron sights" on your best High-Power (sling) rigs, rivals the cost of some of your better F-Class scopes>>>Yet they are NOT scopes. So why NOT just invest in a scope and go F-Class.
3.) If you really like precision shooting, F-Class is one place to do it. Some of the best Hi-Power "sling" shooters have rifles that are just as accurate as the F-Class rigs. However, you shoot them in less than ideal ways, ergo you don't get the precision. The Hi-Power targets are twice the size of F-Class. That does NOT make them easy to shoot on, especially "off-hand" and in all that "get-up" you wear. However, at the same time, it is not shooting with the same level of precision as F-Class>>>which some people prefer.


NOW: Why the concept that the reverse may be coming true? Here is my idea: The sheer cost of getting into F-Class, especially F-Open, is growing at an alarming rate. If you have a 'smith order you all the components from the action, stock trigger etc.>> and do all the work, you're looking at a number between 4,000-5000 bucks>> and you still need a good scope>>>1200-3200 bucks! This is not to mention a really good rest like the SEB NEO, which are a bit over $1000.00 dollars themselves! Then the time and $$$s spent on loading components for advanced precision loading and you are up to your eyeballs in dollar signs! I think this is the PRIMARY reason why people may be moving away from F-Class.. AND if you want to CONTINUE to be competitive, the dollars just keep going up and it never appears to slow down!

 

[XTR]

I've landed twice now in locations where F class is in the minority.

When I was shooting in Oak Ridge there were weekend club matches when I'd be the only F-TR shooter to show with 4 or 5 other guys shooting Open and there would be the usual cast of characters with slings that would number about 2x that. Oddly enough just a few hours away Tullahoma had a huge F-class cadre, and not to many sling shooters.

I've moved to the Northeast now. There are 3 different ranges convenient to me, two within 90 minutes and one about 2½ hours away, that shoot XTC and NRA HP matches to 600 yards. Not many F class shooters here. I shot with a New England team that went to Canada to shoot the 40th edition of a mini-Palma match and we barely fielded an F-TR team. (Canadia being the birthplace of F Class they like to shoot it)

I'm hoping to get active here and do some promoting. Between XTC and mid range I could just about shoot ever weekend up here after the snow melts. Long range is where the region lacks, but over the last couple of yrs mid-range F class seems to have come into it's own.

 

[DE-F-Open]

I've landed twice now in locations where F class is in the minority.

When I was shooting in Oak Ridge there were weekend club matches when I'd be the only F-TR shooter to show with 4 or 5 other guys shooting Open and there would be the usual cast of characters with slings that would number about 2x that. Oddly enough just a few hours away Tullahoma had a huge F-class cadre, and not to many sling shooters.

I've moved to the Northeast now. There are 3 different ranges convenient to me, two within 90 minutes and one about 2½ hours away, that shoot XTC and NRA HP matches to 600 yards. Not many F class shooters here. I shot with a New England team that went to Canada to shoot the 40th edition of a mini-Palma match and we barely fielded an F-TR team. (Canadia being the birthplace of F Class they like to shoot it)

I'm hoping to get active here and do some promoting. Between XTC and mid range I could just about shoot ever weekend up here after the snow melts. Long range is where the region lacks, but over the last couple of yrs mid-range F class seems to have come into it's own.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To All:

Here's some data from NRA for everyone's consideration:

As of October 27, 2017 here are the number of persons holding F-Class classifications:

F-Class Fullbore = 484
F-Class Long Range = 3577
F-Class Mid-Range = 5932

Now for Sling classifications as of the same date:

(HP) Sling Fullbore = 569
(HP) Sling Long Range = 3686
(HP) Sling Mid-Range = 5397

Notice that there are more people holding F-Class Mid-Range Classifications than there are holding Mid-Range Sling classifications.

Also please note how close the numbers are for both Long Range and Fullbore.

Interesting, indeed.

Hope this helps the discussion.

John

 

[Dusty Stevens]

what was the original intent of the F in f class? did that mean a $6000 rifle or was it intended on becoming a real financial burden to new shooters? it has became an equipment race- discouraging for the young and older cats dont want to pull targets. lots of younger cats are looking for action and getting more for their money. if prs shoots were held in more locations youd see it skyrocket in popularity

 

[Jay Christopherson]

what was the original intent of the F in f class? did that mean a $6000 rifle or was it intended on becoming a real financial burden to new shooters? it has became an equipment race- discouraging for the young and older cats dont want to pull targets. lots of younger cats are looking for action and getting more for their money. if prs shoots were held in more locations youd see it skyrocket in popularity

(F)arquarson? I would argue there's no sport in the world that hasn't become an equipment race to one degree or another. Complaining about it has never changed the fact. "Limiting" the equipment hasn't made Nascar or FTR any less of a race. Nothing wrong with it though, IMO. Personally, I think the only real equipment advantage are the guys who have the time and can afford to buy and chamber enough barrels to find the "hummers". The rest of it is mostly for show or comfort. PRS is a terrible example though, if you want to talk about equipment races...

Anyhow, that's not really the topic at hand I guess.

 

[CharlieNC]

Dusty I agree PRS is very appealing to the younger shooters, and I would jump into it with both feet but instead I get to shoot in the Fclass senior category. All the youngsters I know prefer it for the action. To encourage growth they have a production rifle category, which has a dollar limit based on suggested retail and no mods allowed.

 

[Dos XX]

2018 Berger SWN breakdown.


144 f open
107 ftr
109 sling

 

[XTR]

PRS... where the guys with the NASCAR jerseys are carrying $10K in tech not counting the rifle and optic.

@DE-F-Open I think the mid range numbers are a function of availability of ranges, there are a hella lot more 600 yard ranges than 1000, and it's also a lot easier to at least feel competitive at 600 if you don't have a high end rig in F-TR. On the other hand, if you are shooting mid range F Open along the Mississippi Valley you need to be hauling a lazer.

@Dusty Stevens I've had this discussion more than once. One needs to recognize the difference in competitors and participants. It's competition, in competition the competitors will always search for the best equipment available. I can think of no inexpensive shooting sport. As for $6000 for a rifle, it's not really needed at all. Anyone can get a Savage for $1250 and a Sightron for under $1000 and be in the game and competitive for under $2500. Jim Crofts won the FCNC twice with a Savage action.

Now most of us who are serious about the game like our nice stuff and may not want to shoot a Savage with a Sightron. Smooth actions and pretty wood are things we like. I've spent a lot of $$ on pretty wood for my rifles. Pretty wood doesn't make them shoot better, and a slick action feels nice, but in slow fire supported shooting it doesn't particularly help.

Having the time and $$ to do load testing and getting range time is far more of an advantage than a pretty rifle and the latest scope.

As for what George Farquharson would have thought, he was a competitive TR shooter. I'd guess he'd would understand competition.

 

[rotts4u]

This is very interesting info and thanks for posting it. IS there a site where I can get this as well as other details such as how many shooters at HM, MA, EX etc classifications?

I would love to see the breakdown in F open of the various classifications and number of people at each level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To All:

Here's some data from NRA for everyone's consideration:

As of October 27, 2017 here are the number of persons holding F-Class classifications:

F-Class Fullbore = 484
F-Class Long Range = 3577
F-Class Mid-Range = 5932

Now for Sling classifications as of the same date:

(HP) Sling Fullbore = 569
(HP) Sling Long Range = 3686
(HP) Sling Mid-Range = 5397

Notice that there are more people holding F-Class Mid-Range Classifications than there are holding Mid-Range Sling classifications.

Also please note how close the numbers are for both Long Range and Fullbore.

Interesting, indeed.

Hope this helps the discussion.

John

 

[Ringostar]

In some areas, sling shooting is still strong. These places still out number the F class shooters. Some areas the sling shooting has died down greatly.

 

[DirtySteve]

XTR said, " I can think of no inexpensive shooting sport. As for $6000 for a rifle, it's not really needed at all. Anyone can get a Savage for $1250 and a Sightron for under $1000 and be in the game and competitive for under $2500. Jim Crofts won the FCNC twice with a Savage action."
I agree with XTR...
I got started shooting F-TR again. Took a ten year break. I used a Savage action and stuck a Shilen barrel on it I got from Midway, a HS Precision stock and a Leupold AR series Scope. I have about $1500 in it total. It is in 223 and I never once felt the rifle was letting me down. The thing shoot tiny groups so if I did not do well it was my fault not the rifle. I shot this "cheap" rifle even though I had a GA Precision rifle sitting in the safe. It took me to "Master" I now brought out the GAP rifle in 308 to try to get into "High Master".

I think the reason some folks don't stay with it is because too many folks are telling them they "Need" this action and that scope. So they feel like they can not afford to compete and do well with their stuff because after all their first match or so they don't do well and think well I really need to get better stuff and I just don't have the money for it now and walk a way. They fail to realize that it is wind reading that is killing their score and not loading up the bipod consistently from shot to shot. We can do more by encouraging folk to shoot what they have for a year or two before getting better gear will help them.

 

[gme]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To All:

Here's some data from NRA for everyone's consideration:

As of October 27, 2017 here are the number of persons holding F-Class classifications:

F-Class Fullbore = 484
F-Class Long Range = 3577
F-Class Mid-Range = 5932

Now for Sling classifications as of the same date:

(HP) Sling Fullbore = 569
(HP) Sling Long Range = 3686
(HP) Sling Mid-Range = 5397

Notice that there are more people holding F-Class Mid-Range Classifications than there are holding Mid-Range Sling classifications.

Also please note how close the numbers are for both Long Range and Fullbore.

Interesting, indeed.

Hope this helps the discussion.

John

there's a fair amount of crossover, most shooters hold multiple classifications, there's a number of sling shooters who also shoot F class (myself included) not as many F class shooters who also shoot sling

 

[ShootDots]

I love shooting and I have been shooting all my life. One of my hobbies PRIOR to getting into F-Class, was to get "nice" rifles and have custom barrels put on them, in an array of cartridges so I could wring out the most accuracy I could. From time to time I got some really, really, good barrels and they shot tiny little dots! (Hence my name on here "ShootDots").. Well once I got into F-Open, I had to take it to another level. "Freebore", better and better bullets, better scopes, better, better "whatever".. There was a learning curve and it was necessary to be in top level competition. I also found that IF you want to compete at the HIGHEST levels, you will be competing against others who have "all the right stuff". If you do not have what they have and shoot nearly as well or as well, you will be "competitive" BUT the chances of winning against them would be all but impossible! I am very fortunate that I have "all the right stuff" and I can shoot NEARLY as good as the top shooters, however, I can NOT quite shoot as well, especially at long range. However, I am JUST AS CONVINCED I could NOT get as close as I am, if I did not have the really good equipment! It really does set the best-of-the-best shooters ON TOP! Is it necessary to WIN ALL THE TIME? Not for me>>>>fun is the name of the game for me>>>>However, when I DO WIN it is that much more fun! Here is a saying I have: "I am 6 ft. above ground and NOT 6 ft. below. I am at the range at a match! Does it get any better than that? Being alive and at the match, I have the cake, IF I win, I get the frosting>>>IF I set a National Record, I get to eat the cake too!!" Don't let $$$$s steal your fun! Get to the matches!>>>But if you are a competitive shooter, and SAVOR winning, don't let $$$$s stand in your way either, IF you can lay out the cash!

 

[dcali]

I'd say match attendance has leveled off for us. Why, I don't know. Maybe a little because F Open has gotten so competitive that you need a 600-40x to win on a low-wind day, and that's maybe a hair too close to benchrest for some folks. Then again, our matches have significantly more Open shooters than TR, so go figure. We still get very healthy matches, though, so I'm not overly concerned about attendance. I wish the Service Rifle matches filled up as much.

 

[Grimstod]

PRS seams to be the big thing now. Mostly because it's "tacticool" if you know what I mean. Local matches here had less then 100 entries and now this year they are each over 300. And they are becoming a lot more prevalent then F-class. I have to drive 2hrs to my closest F-class whil PRS I have three options with in 1hrs drive.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

(F)arquarson? I would argue there's no sport in the world that hasn't become an equipment race to one degree or another.

My buddies and I have won several (local) matches and are starting to shoot high master scores with some regularity with $1000 rifles (+/-) with $1000 scopes. No, we'll never compete with Brian Bowling, but we're all growing in skill and having fun. Isn't that the point?

We also attend a tactical rifle match and some local Action Pistol, Steel Challenge, and USPSA matches. These have much less of an equipment race feel with over half the shooters any given day shooting pretty humble stuff. (Unlike F-Class where a $2k rig is the most humble on the line most days.) Sure, the open divisions can be an equipment race, but most weeks over 80% of the shooters are in the production and limited divisions, and most of those are shooting their carry guns or another off-the shelf piece. One friend shoots a Gen 2 Glock and another shoots a Sig carried for 20 years. No one suggests they need better equipment in order to be competitive. Lots of folks having fun and improving their skills with no thoughts of upgrading their equipment to do it. Isn't that the point?

 

[swadiver]

F Class, F/TR is not being promoted or getting much press. the NRA seems not interested in even mentioning it in any of their publications, for example. on the other hand, if i see another article/review on the 6.5 Creedmoore for PRS or an AR15 i am going to.................

 

[Berger.Fan222]

F Class, F/TR is not being promoted or getting much press. the NRA seems not interested in even mentioning it in any of their publications, for example. on the other hand, if i see another article/review on the 6.5 Creedmoore for PRS or an AR15 i am going to.................

My view is that those publications and their articles are driven by advertising. Is more advertising paid for by companies selling 6.5 Creedmoores and AR15s or by companies selling off-the-shelf F-Class rifles?

But I also view it as more the job of local F-Class organizers to get their message out and offer experiences that are competitive with all the other local shooting options. "Customer friendly" is not a phrase I would use to describe most of the F-Class matches I've attended. The action pistol disciplines (and related rifle sports) are running circles around the F-Class options in this regard.